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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

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Value, Bart, check down

ILYAILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
So listening to Bart, I've been trying to squeeze max value out of everything for the past year or so. This weekend I think I checked down the strongest hand over this period of time.
I am at 2/5 at Harrah's AC. The game is somewhat special, because across from me I got a middle aged regular who is one of the loosest guys I've ever encountered at 2/5. His general ammo is calling everything, and then trying to pound if he catches up. Early in the session he called $150 pre with QJo. After getting it in on the flop, he rivered me out of $1500 pot. So that's the backdrop and history. Now to the hand.
He and an asian kid limp, and I make it $35 with KK. They both call. Pot 110.
Flop - Jc,5d,3h. Checked to me, I bet 70, call, call. The overcall from the kid got me a little concerned. I was suspicious of a small set. People weren't bluffing the Loosest Guy Ever (LVE) so the kid should have known I had a hand. Pot 320.
Turn 4c, putting two clubs on the board. Check, check. Because of the suspicious overcall, I bet smaller, prepared to possibly fold, especially to the kid. I bet 125. Call. Call. Pot 700.
River Kc, putting the backdoor clubs out there. Check, check. I thought about it for at least a minute. I was trying to figure out what could I get called by that I beat. No one has 2 pair there, because I would have gotten popped on the turn. They don't have KJ (combos). The best hand that they could have is QJ (no AJ cause they were limpers). And I just don't think QJ/TJ type of hand can ever call $275-300 river bet with a straight, a flush, and an overcard on the board. So I ended up checking down the top set! I think even LVE will drop a J on that river with me firing 3 streets.
p.s. I had about 600-700 left on the river, and they both had me covered. If LVE had a hand like 56s or 57s, and asian kid - JTs, it seems that check is the correct play. I think I'm only getting river action if LVE has 5c7c and has me beat. If anyone sees any additional value in betting here, please explain.

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    So the first question I would ask you is this. If you had the absolute nuts on the river and you can't get called by worse would you still bet it? Of course you would.. So after they both checked you didn't bet it beyond me. BAD BOY! You didn't give us the action when the loose station did on the river when he beat you in that big pot but I bet he would do the same thing in this spot. SOOOO if he lead out on the river in the big pot and didn't here then you know you have him.

    So these are some suggestions for this hand

    1) with the flop so dry I think your $70 bet is fine.

    2) Your bet on the turn should be much bigger... NOT SMALLER.. not because you are worrying about getting check raised by a set but because now you will get called by more drawing hands..AND you define your hand.. ie if you bet bigger AND get raised you can more easily fold.. players are not making that many moves on the turn with draws so you really dont need to worry about that.

    3) After they BOTH check the river you just have to bet that! You will actually get called lighter because of the backdoor draw because players will think there is more or a chance you can be bluffing.. I wouldnt bet too much here since as your range analysis had players fairly weak so something like 1/3 pot .. then if you get raised you can fold here too.

    this past saturday I raised to 20 pre with A2 hearts and the fish at the table called. Flop came

    6 8 3 rainbow.. I cbet 35 got called turn I planned on dbl barreling.. but came A clubs now backdoor club draw..

    I bet for value $65 he called again.. then he checked the Q club river.. this guy was a player who bet when he thought he has the best hand and liked to bluff catch other situations.. So when he checked the river I was about 99% sure my pair of aces was good and I bet $70.. and got looked up. I could hear him talking to himself trying to put me on a hand but in the end he thought I was bluffing and called.. I had very weak holding but I got called by worse..

    Wendy
  • You've got to go for value here Ilya. The fact that someone cant have top pair that turns into a backdoor flush means it is even more unlikely that your is not good. Do you really think that the kid is overcalling the flop with second pair? The other thing is that when players make backdoor Fdraws they almost always bet the river as so many times their opponents (in your spot) will check back one pair.

    Another critical piece of hand reading is that the turn is a 4, so it is impossibly for a guy to have called you with a straight draw that PICKS up a flush draw. If they called you with a straight draw they either would have paired up or made the straight with A2 or 67. Do you remember what suits your Kings where? If you didnt have the Kh then one of those guys can pay you off with Kh xh
    Bart
  • ILYAILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    wendyweissman said

    2) Your bet on the turn should be much bigger... NOT SMALLER.. not because you are worrying about getting check raised by a set but because now you will get called by more drawing hands..AND you define your hand.. ie if you bet bigger AND get raised you can more easily fold.. players are not making that many moves on the turn with draws so you really dont need to worry about that.

    3) After they BOTH check the river you just have to bet that! You will actually get called lighter because of the backdoor draw because players will think there is more or a chance you can be bluffing.. I wouldnt bet too much here since as your range analysis had players fairly weak so something like 1/3 pot .. then if you get raised you can fold here too.

    Wendy
    2) I do not need to define my hand any more than I did. No one was bluffing that guy, including me. Everyone knew that, including him. If raised, I would have easily folded. Your logic is contradictory. Because they are not making moves on the turn, I don't need to worry about any percieved weekness due to a slightly smaller turn bet. I do agree though that, simply for plain value, I could bet a bit more on turn, at least 1/2 pot.
    3) No one is thinking I am bluffing on that river, including the slow waitress. My bluffing frequency in that spot would be about 2%. I just don't think I win when I get called >50% of the time.
  • ILYAILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    Bart said

    You've got to go for value here Ilya. The fact that someone cant have top pair that turns into a backdoor flush means it is even more unlikely that your is not good. Do you really think that the kid is overcalling the flop with second pair? The other thing is that when players make backdoor Fdraws they almost always bet the river as so many times their opponents (in your spot) will check back one pair.

    Another critical piece of hand reading is that the turn is a 4, so it is impossibly for a guy to have called you with a straight draw that PICKS up a flush draw. If they called you with a straight draw they either would have paired up or made the straight with A2 or 67. Do you remember what suits your Kings where? If you didnt have the Kh then one of those guys can pay you off with Kh xh
    Bart
    As I described in OP, LVE was the first caller as he was first to act out of 3. He could easily call my flop cbet with 2nd pair and turn a flush or a straight draw. The overcaller kid (2nd to act) was probably on a J. You're totally correct on backdoor flush leads... for standard opponents. But This guy could Easily go for a check/shove on river. You and I know everone checks back river, but he is not thinking about that. He is thinking about stacking somebody. And he can't stack me if he leads river.

    Yes, you usually discuss top pair callers picking up draws. I was very comfortable with my read of 2nd pair flop call from LVE that picked up a draw on the turn, or 64 which picked up a pair. So specifically, I'm talking about 64s, 56s, 57s, 36s. If his connector is not clubs that come in, he won't call river.
    I don't get your point about Kings and hearts. You may have misread the board. The flop was rainbow. The backdoor flush was clubs, and it came in with Kc on river. So no one has Kc5c if that's where you were going.

    p.s. If I was facing a river bet, then I would be trying to figure out how likely is it that I am beat, and how could the bettor have arrived at a flush. But in my case, I'm just trying to see if I get called by anything worse, or if Everything worse folds. I just don't think the guy ever calls me with a pair of fives per above range analysis.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Ilya

    I sense some defense on your part.. Like we are attacking you.. I am sorry if my post came off that way that was not my intent. I just don't buy that players are thinking about how to check raise rivers to get the money in. They just don't. I would say at my level 99% would bet the river for fear it would get check through and they would not make any money on their flush or other big hand..

    players that trap are easy to recognize and if was this player type I am virtually certain if he was trapping he would only trap with the nuts on the river.. Since the nuts is a backdoor club flush what Ax of clubs could he have on the flop that he would call? A wheel for a gutshot A2 or A4... but then the 4 c hits the turn so that leaves only A2 clubs or A5 clubs or A3 clubs second or bottom pair.. I still think they bet the river almost all the time..

    So lets say they check raise 15% of the time in this spot and the other 85% of the time they lead out. This means for ever 6 times you bet you will be check raised.. If they call you 20% of the time then thats 1:5

    You bet say $100... 18% of the time you will be check raised and can fold your set because thats almost 99% a value hand.. you lose $100
    You bet $100 and the other 85% of the time you win the pot.. with some percentage being looked up .. say 20%

    You can see that if you run this scenario over and over and over again it doesn't really matter that THIS time they might be trapping you because the other 85% of the time you will be thin value betting and some of the time you get looked up. ie +EV play and that's all that matters..

    One of the basic notions in poker is a check generally means weakness.. so use that information and with what is basically the second nuts bet my friend and make more money

    Wendy
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    bet river. doesn't have to be a big bet, but definitely bet. when is the last time you saw someone c/r the river with a bluff (or bluff catcher) and show?

    hero's line of betting 3 streets after raising preflop is automatically polarizing in small stakes games. most players are happy to check back a strong showdown-ish (non-nut) type of hand, so when you bet all 3 streets, it can trigger the spidey senses of your opponents enough to call down very light.
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