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[Discussion] Playing tight up front and loose in the back in no fold em hold em games?

NeverclassyNeverclassy Posts: 20Subscriber
edited August 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Alright guys, so I have been playing a plethora of low stake games recently, anything from 4/8 limit, 2/6 spread, 1/3 nl and 2/5 nl, as well as some very, very weak fielded charity burnaments at the local club. I have speculated that once someone puts money into the pot in pretty much any of these fields, be it a limp or a raise, they are never folding to a bet (Less true for 2/5). That brings me to my question.

Before I get started let me just say that the obvious hands are raises, this is more of a discussion regarding medium strength and speculative hands.

Let's just take a no limit hand at the said local tournament for example. The field is primarily older, 55+ all are very easy to read and the field is pretty much split at nits and loose-passive, limping a lot of weak hands and not folding to a raise.

Blind levels are at 100/200 H (CO) has around 18k behind. Which is a little more than average at the table. 3 people limp in and H has J9o.

-Now, as I type this it does look like a really good spot to squeeze, however, knowing that people have been limp calling close to 100% is it more profitable for us to over limp and call a raise from the blinds in position (although this is basically NEVER happening at this game unless the person has AKs, AA or KK) and take the flop knowing that normally these guys play fit or fold post-flop? Do I really want to raise here and put more of my stack at risk in what is guaranteed to be a bloated pot after 4 people call my raise?

Of course, things are a bit different in tournament play, in which our stacks are a lot more valuable than in a cash game so putting in the minimum when behind or drawing is ideal, as it is in any game I guess (of course this is situation dependent)? And stacking the pot when we are ahead is obvious. So, I suppose over limping in a tournament setting, in a situation like this is probably better than over limping in say, a 1/3 game. Which I think this would most definitely be a raise.

This is really only regarding hands in which there are at least 2 limpers between you and the blinds. I think this would definitely be an open to 1 limper, just regarding more of the multi player hands that I seem to encounter in settings like this.

Thoughts? Pro's and Con's to this style of play? Any input is obviously appreciated! Just want to talk about this stuff.. Also hoping that this is in the right section, I am fairly new to the forums and figured since this is more of a strategy post rather than a HH it will be fine. Let me know!

Comments

  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    II will address the cash side. What are the buyins capped at for 1/2 , 1/3 and 2/5. If th cap is
    100bb or less and they never fold then your game plan should be to raise strong value hands for as much as you can get away prelop and bet for value post flop. Only.play speculative hands in position where you can get value if you flop well... for example overflush someone.If they are sticky post flop then value bet them. If some play fit or fold post flop you can cbet bluff in the right situations and barrell.
    .
    Thanked by 1Neverclassy
  • NeverclassyNeverclassy Posts: 20Subscriber
    II will address the cash side. What are the buyins capped at for 1/2 , 1/3 and 2/5. If th cap is
    100bb or less and they never fold then your game plan should be to raise strong value hands for as much as you can get away prelop and bet for value post flop. Only.play speculative hands in position where you can get value if you flop well... for example overflush someone.If they are sticky post flop then value bet them. If some play fit or fold post flop you can cbet bluff in the right situations and barrell.
    .

    Thanks for the reply. This is valuable information, however not necessarily the sort of things I was looking to talk about. My question was more directed towards how we play those speculative hands in position against sticky players. Value hands are obvious raises, but those speculative hands that we want to see a flop with but don't want to play in a big bloated pot with until we make a hand, how are we playing those preflop and where is the line?
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    There is no problem overlimping these types of hands. When I give someone brand new to the game a plan for preflop I tell them to always ignore the first limp and treat it like it doesn't exist. Meaning if you have a playable hand from late position raise it from the back over limp. With 2 or more limpers only raise the hands that you would from the first two positions (which I give as normally 99+ AJ+ and KQ).

    Bart
    Thanked by 1Neverclassy
  • NeverclassyNeverclassy Posts: 20Subscriber
    Bart wrote: »
    There is no problem overlimping these types of hands. When I give someone brand new to the game a plan for preflop I tell them to always ignore the first limp and treat it like it doesn't exist. Meaning if you have a playable hand from late position raise it from the back over limp. With 2 or more limpers only raise the hands that you would from the first two positions (which I give as normally 99+ AJ+ and KQ).

    Bart

    Thanks for the feedback. Another question I have is whether or not switching between limit and no limit is a bad thing for me.

    I don't seem to have a problem readjusting for the game that I am in, but then again I have only been playing semi regularly for about 2 years now, so I may not recognize if there is an issue. If not, what sort of things should I be aware of while bouncing back and forth?

  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    In NL the winrates as compared to small limit games is going to be exponentially higher if the rake is beatable. Small stakes NL is all about getting full value from your hands and selecting the correct hands to play preflop.
    Thanked by 1Neverclassy
  • snapper35snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    Proly need a LLSNL section-
    I get your vibe man and could go on and on about 1-3 capped. 1-2 capped is fucking stupid with a table of OMC/bads, I cant even sit for there for 10 minutes just waiting on a another game.

    Most responses arent from people who play low stakes games. Overlimping, raising and Vb stations sounds so easy like you dont know what you doing. If you have studied the entire site and get the concepts then ok.

    Yes I will get up and have a smoke in EP and I dont even smoke! Then straddle in from LP!
    Sounds extreme but BART will say its a preflop game and when you have sat at table with limpy/calling guys you cant raise preflop and take a flop with out 6 others. Which leads to bet folding or stack sizes getting awkward on the turn AND thats with everyone starting at the cap let alone a short stack. BART has a hand in podcast like this AND in the MIdwest this could be every hand you play.
    This table is day crowd limping or night timers limp/calling- you might as well play limit then.

    You can overlimp 4 inpos all day with Axss/55 BUT you still have to hit. By hit I mean the FLOP! Thats like 10% to hit a flush draw AND then you have to actually make the hand. Or hit a set 1 in 8. Even if you only call like less 5% of stack for speculative hands its adds up!

    Yes late position only and not even as wide and sexy as you read on this site. Because when you dont hit you need to be able steal good board textures. This is where the site will improve your game soooooo much with relative position and hand reading.
    Know who is short stacked, know V's, who is to your left and have a plan when you dont hit. You need to steal just to keep afloat for all the time you have to bet fold.

    Best case is the table isnt as limpy/cally and use the David Chan 3 betting.
    This works out way bettor. BART will say bet big on flop so V knows it will cost him.
    Ex. your BTN and overlimp 6 ways to flop. When you bet PSB 15 or 20 they all still call cause "its only 15 or 20". You dont have the lead as preflop raiser and they call cause the pot is cheap. The stacks sizes can start to get weird even if everyone is topped off and jesus if your opos....3bet preflop starts to build the pot BUT not 3betting light if its 6 ways to flop with sticky stations.

    Read that article on the phil helmuth of vegas LLSNL. I use that style in multiway pots opos or just when a short stacks in. You dont even have to make the PSB and OB on river for it work.

    I read once tells can increase 10% of your win rate. Bullshit
    Live tells at low stakes are can be worth 90%.

    SEAT CHANGES also
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