Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Should I Defend with JTo?

And by defending I mean calling a raise. In BB or SB? What about QJo?
«1

Comments

  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Only if the button is just hammering you and even then you should be reraising. I would only occasional call with SC and then be prepared to bluff.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    i like calling w broadway hands in multiway pots like four handed or more or against players who raise too often in pos
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Thehammah wrote: »
    i like calling w broadway hands in multiway pots like four handed or more or against players who raise too often in pos

    That I can see more

    OP: your questions definitely depends on the situation and if it's and early raise with callers or just a button that's picking on you.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    if the pfr is tight player then no dont defend or if pfr has a short stack

    i like multiway pots because you can win a really big pot if you hit top two or a straight and straight will likely be nut straight

    with really high brodway against a lp abuser now you should be 3 betting big with that pre if he calls 3 bets or flat if he folds to threebets
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    JTo is trash. 3 bet or fold
    Thanked by 2beauregard iamallin
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Arenzano wrote: »
    JTo is trash. 3 bet or fold

    way way to narrow a thought. 23 is trash. JT immensly more playable as it can hit top pair thats good. as well as hitting villains range when hero hits two pair or better

    poker is about situations there are no black and white "rules"

    Thanked by 2hectorjelly DTMoore
  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Zano is correct -
    in the long run, I think the risk to reward ratio of calling a PFR with JTos and QJos is too high.

    Think about it this way...

    If a tight player is raising pre-flop with a range like JJ-AA, AK & AQs - what's our equity in the pot with JTos? My pokercrucher says about 21%.
    So if we're going to play the "math game" - we've got to get 5 times the pf raise amount to make this a neutral EV call. Right? (and to make it +EV, we've got to get even more!)
    Now let's consider what kinds of boards do we need to hit for our hand to be good? Boards with JJ or TT or Q98 or QKA... etc.... kind of obvious boards, don't you think?
    Against a drooler, it's very possible that AK calls off his stack on a AKQ board... but how often is THAT going to happen? Not often, right? So in all the times we're calling, we're not going to get a big pay out but once in a blue moon.

    Now, let's consider the PFR is a LAG, who's opening range is wider... there, on a J-high board our hand might be best, and it might not. (Same holds true with QJos) So the only way to truly know would be to call off a lot of chips (or raise) and hope that we've got the best hand. (And if the LAG's got zip & pip, he's probably folding to your donk bet - so again, no value for your risk.)

    Essentially - what's going to happen is YOU'RE going to be taking all the risk and IF you hit your hand, you may not get paid off or paid in full. (Remember, in the blinds, you're one of the first to act. So you often lose a street of betting by checking to see what happens.)

    In a multi-way pot, things are a bit different because you're getting better odds to make a hand. BUT, you also have to remember that JTos and QJos are more of drawing hands than "made hands" - so you may have to call off a flop and turn bet to see if your hand is any good... again, you taking all the risks with no guarantee of enjoying any of the benefits.

    in a SoCal, loosey-goosey, limpy-lou low limit games completing the SB with such hands may not be total spew - but in most of the other parts of the US, my guess is it's -EV.

    As Hammah said - it's very V-dependent.
    But I would venture to guess in the long term, it's -EV to call.
  • David ChanDavid Chan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    It just depends on the situation. There are many times when I have folded a good starting hand like AJo in the blinds versus a preflop raise, and there have been some times where I have called/overcalled JTo in the blinds.

    Basically, the upside has to be big enough to justify the downside risk. Usually, you need to consider the ranges of the PFR and/or cold callers. You also have to consider how good/bad that the players are RELATIVE to your skill level. You also have to consider RELATIVE POSITION.

    Learn to understand the intricacies of every preflop scenario, and then you can correctly determine the optimal tightness or looseness of your own preflop range.
  • David ChanDavid Chan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    Thehammah wrote: »
    i like calling w broadway hands in multiway pots like four handed or more or against players who raise too often in pos
    I think this is a mostly good answer as long as you are also taking factors like GOOD OR BAD RELATIVE POSITION and RELATIVE SKILL LEVELS into account...which could nudge a marginal preflop decision into the +EV call territory or -EV call territory.

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    DavidChan wrote: »
    Thehammah wrote: »
    i like calling w broadway hands in multiway pots like four handed or more or against players who raise too often in pos
    I think this is a mostly good answer as long as you are also taking factors like GOOD OR BAD RELATIVE POSITION and RELATIVE SKILL LEVELS into account...which could nudge a marginal preflop decision into the +EV call territory or -EV call territory.

    absolutely.. many other factors in play.
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    Depends upon a lot of factors. What position is the PFR? How tight is the PFR raising range and how often does he fold to 3 bets in position? Can we 3bet this for value or a bluff? What is our relative position? How light will the PFR stack off? How is your ability to play OOP against this particular villian and any players that will come along?
  • Alrite, I'll make it a little more specific just for you. JTo in BB vs a button a stealer who opens 90%+ of buttons. SB folded. 100BB effective.
    DavidChan wrote: »
    It just depends on the situation. There are many times when I have folded a good starting hand like AJo in the blinds versus a preflop raise, and there have been some times where I have called/overcalled JTo in the blinds.

    Basically, the upside has to be big enough to justify the downside risk. Usually, you need to consider the ranges of the PFR and/or cold callers. You also have to consider how good/bad that the players are RELATIVE to your skill level. You also have to consider RELATIVE POSITION.

    Learn to understand the intricacies of every preflop scenario, and then you can correctly determine the optimal tightness or looseness of your own preflop range.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2015
    I don't like JTo for 3bet. If we're doing a polarized 3betting range then it's too strong and if we're doing a non-polarized 3betting range then it's too weak :) It's just not a 3betting hand imho.
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Pop it back. If he's stealing that much you have to take a stand. So pick a range your going to raise him evertime with. There is a chance he just lays off after you show your willing to raise him. Just calling opens you to a lot of Cbet bluffs which he's probably doing. Also. Your going to have to mix it up with a player like that and pick your spots to raise and call appropriately.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2015
    So far what I'm arriving to is that always folding JTo in the blinds cannot possibly be too much of a leak. While always calling would be a substantial leak. So we should certainly be folding it the vast majority of the time. One scenario where I see calling JTo in the blinds as +EV would be when there are already multiple people in the pot like at least 3 so we get decent pot odds with a hand that does semi-decent multiway.

    QJo though.. I'm almost always flatting.
  • pokertime wrote: »
    Pop it back. If he's stealing that much you have to take a stand. So pick a range your going to raise him evertime with. There is a chance he just lays off after you show your willing to raise him. Just calling opens you to a lot of Cbet bluffs which he's probably doing. Also. Your going to have to mix it up with a player like that and pick your spots to raise and call appropriately.

    I agree, I just don't think JTo is a good hand to 3b with.

  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    JapanTown wrote: »
    QJo though.. I'm almost always flatting.
    how is QJos any better than JTos?
    this would be a good time to play around with poker stove and compare its strength to ranges. I think you would find that it's not much better equity-wise.
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    If he is raising 90% of hands on the button when you are on the BB and the SB folded and there are no limpers, then I am 3 betting him for value with a high frequency because his range is so wide.

    I would think that cold calling in the blinds when it goes multiway (5+ players) might be a good idea if the raiser was close to us in position like UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2 and there are 0 or 1 callers between us and the PFR and if he stacks off light because we are in good relative position and we stand to be able to stack him on the right flops and get to see what everyone does on the flop after we check.
    Thanked by 1Thehammah
  • David ChanDavid Chan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    If someone is raising 90%+ of his BTNs when folded to him, then I would probably be looking to exploit his weak range in one way or another. If he often folds to 3bets, I would 3bets bluff with a much higher frequency. If he never folds to 3bets, then I am probably flatting my BB with a wide range of hands.

    Is it bad to take a mediocre starting hand like JTo OOP versus a Villain who has a very wide and weak range? Probably not because Villain probably has big post flop leaks in his game, so we will have a significant skill advantage that should match or outweigh our positional disadvantage.
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    JapanTown wrote: »
    pokertime wrote: »
    Pop it back. If he's stealing that much you have to take a stand. So pick a range your going to raise him evertime with. There is a chance he just lays off after you show your willing to raise him. Just calling opens you to a lot of Cbet bluffs which he's probably doing. Also. Your going to have to mix it up with a player like that and pick your spots to raise and call appropriately.

    I agree, I just don't think JTo is a good hand to 3b with.

    Yeah but it's not your hand value it's needing to "play poker" against this guy. If he's raising that much your JT has him crushed a lot of the time. I would start with JT+ and 3! every time and see how he reacts and then go from there. The first time he 4! If you only have JTo you can fold but keep it up and 4! AQ+ th first time you can. You may have to back this way off but you need to figure out what he's doing and how you can counter. It may be to get a seat change or table change!
Sign In or Register to comment.