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2/5PLO: bet or c/r the turn?

chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
live 2/5PLO, $1000max, 7 handed.

hero ($800). Hijack. image is neutral tonight after stacking off early with wrap + FD vs. top pair/nfd, then doubling through same opponent with nut full vs. ???.

villian 1 ($700): cutoff. older guy (70ish), and has been by far the tightest at the table. sat when the game first started, then picked up to play NL for several hours and has recently returned. his only showdown that i recall was getting it all in with top set of Aces on the flop vs. KKTXcc on AcJc4x. they ran it twice and chopped. have played NL with him before and he seemed to be pretty loose and good action, but is playing way tighter in 4 card.

villian 2 ($1100). button. i have played many hours of plo with villian 2, though not a lot in recent months. we have been pretty friendly over the past couple of years, but play cards hard against each other. he is winning reg, but not super aggressive -- mostly plays straightforward, which is usually enough to get the job done in live plo.

pre ($7): 1 limp to hero, hero raises to $20 with As4s5h7h. villian 1 calls, villian 2 calls, SB folds, BB calls, limper calls.

flop, 5 players, $100: Ks6s2d
checks to hero, hero checks, villian 1 bets $75, villian 2 calls otb, folds to hero who calls. (?)

turn, 3 players, $325: 3h
(......i turn the nut 6 high straight + NF redraw......)

should hero:

1) lead pot?
2) lead 2/3 pot?
3) c/r all in?

Comments

  • MattKGBMattKGB Posts: 35Subscriber
    I would bet pot or something close to it. I would hate to see the turn being checked around. Villain 1 isn't folding here, I think his range is mostly sets and AKxx with spades . I know that your hand looks like what it is, but you would have only a pot size bet left on the river.
    Is it at Borgata?
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    MattKGB said
    Is it at Borgata?
    no. in california.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I am by no means a good PLO player.. but the few times I have played it seemed like 99% of the players were betting made hands not draws.. Given this guy is an older player I would lean even more towards this thinking.

    I am not sure about checking on the flop because now your hand looks like a draw.. And the flop is pretty dry so I think a bet isnt likely to get raised and you are deep enough that you should be able to call.

    Given your check on the flop you just need to lead with the nut straight and hope that someone else has it to and you can get it in freerolling them. Someone might even have a flush draw they think is good .. like Q or J or even some random bozo with something like 45 or the like..

    Wendy
  • You raised with a marginal hand and got a flop that was almost as good as you could hope for. I would pot the flop, a lot of better hands fold and worse draws call. Turn is perfect pot it and maybe freeroll . I would not want turn to be checked through.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    PrestonPerry said

    You raised with a marginal hand and got a flop that was almost as good as you could hope for. I would pot the flop, a lot of better hands fold and worse draws call. Turn is perfect pot it and maybe freeroll . I would not want turn to be checked through.
    Surprised to hear you think it is a marginal hand pre. It seems pretty straightforward as to whether I flop strong or not. In this hand , yes, I have flopped pretty well, but if I pot the flop (I assume you are implying to pot/get it in otf), I could be getting it in with only 12 outs or less. And by c/c'ing flop, I don't expose my stack to be drawing dead on the turn for 300+ BBs pot.
  • WillWayWillWay Posts: 35Member
    I wouldn't give these guys any free cards, esp. it being a multiway PLO hand. 2/3 pot bet gets more money in, while a welcome r/r on the turn gets you to call off with the nuts + freeroll NFD and redraw to the higher str8. Pot bet seems reasonable as well since the stack ratios are so close at this point.

    Will
  • MattKGBMattKGB Posts: 35Subscriber
    I agree with that it's pretty marginal hand preflop, but I would still bet in postion over limpres, in early postion in a fairly passive game I would limp hoping to see a cheap flop.
    As played, as a preflop raiser you do flop pretty well, but I would need more to c-bet here, like in a addition to our NFD and a gutter you add a pair(make 7 a 6), our hand becomes much stronger and you can comfortable bet get it in. Thats what I think.
  • When I indicated this was a marginal hand pre I was not saying you shouldnt raise.Im just saying that if you raise pre and get and get an excellent flop for your hand a bet on the flop is in order. You may have only 12 outs but you may also get action from a lot of hands with worse draws. I agree getting it in flipping kind of sucks but considering the times you take it down uncontested plus the times you are a big favorite a bet on the flop is profitable.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I think objectively this is a marginal hand pre. It's main power is the suited A, but the one gapper at the top of low straightening cards means that many straight draws will not be to the nuts and you can easily by dominated by higher straight draws when you flop well. I am c-betting as well as this flop is nearly as good as it gets (I wouldn't personally pot it but c-bet a standard amount) for FD/SDs.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    shmed said

    I think objectively this is a marginal hand pre. It's main power is the suited A, but the one gapper at the top of low straightening cards means that many straight draws will not be to the nuts and you can easily by dominated by higher straight draws when you flop well. I am c-betting as well as this flop is nearly as good as it gets (I wouldn't personally pot it but c-bet a standard amount) for FD/SDs.
    i like this. i think i probably should have just limped along pre (but it's always nice to buy the button). i really do hate being OOP in bloated pots, which is why i wasn't ready to commit my stack to the hand on the flop. i also thought that both villians behind me would be playing pretty straightforward in a multi-way pot, so i thought i could learn a lot by checking the flop. but i don't hate the c-bet either.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I'm all for buying the button, so a raise is fine, with the goal of getting the two behind you to fold. Tough situation that they both call so I can understand why you played it that way.

    Btw as for your original question about the turn play, an argument in favor of leading out is that your hand is super-disguised. I think it's tough to put you on 45 as the PF raiser, and in that light it's likely your opponents would see that card as a blank. So a lead would probably give you the best chance of being reraised from a set of Ks, or a call from an inferior FD/TP type hand (that may not bet themselves). Although, a set of Ks is getting it AI anyway with a CR too, the CR is a stronger show of strength and perhaps more revealing. I like a bet of ~$250 which will leave you give you a reasonable sub-pot-sized bet to shove on the river.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    On the turn, if you think someone will bet - like the old nitty guy who i'm assuming will bet to protect his hand I would chk raise it. If you dont think thats the case than bet of course. On the flop I would chk call like you did for pot control. I started a new thread asking people opinion of that. When I got a 12 out draw or so I prefer to chk call vs getting blown of my hand. If the guy behind you has a set you'll get blown off your draw but by chk calling you see a turn card cheap (which turned out to be one you liked which happens a lot in PLO). NOW you can get it in feeling good even if you are up against a set. Basically youre protecting your stack here vs getting it in on the flop possibly behind. I dont know if this makes sense and appreciate yoru feedback but most of the time I only cb the flop w the nuts or with air repping for example AA if I raised pf when an A comes on the board. Double barreling in this case works well as most people think you have AA when you raise pf.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Re: checking back with the nuts.
    I will almost never do that in plo (somewhat different than holdem) as almost always the turn card will change the board. There are few exceptions. Even flopping aces full, I will usually bet as I'm trying to get value from trips.
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