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Straight/flush draw vs crazy action

PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
1/2 300 max buy-in no

Villain 1 (400) 50s Asian guy. Reg player but not very good. Plays fairly tight and straightforward post, although he is not super nitty pre. I would expect if he had qq+ or maybe ak he'd raise bigger than $7, but that isn't guaranteed. Doesn't cbet light post multiway. Might actually fold draws post for big bets, but not certain.

Villain 2 (400) maniac fish. Possibly high and randomly laughing maniacally for no reason at all. Played super stationy early and donned off several hundred, then flipped into lag mode. 3 times in the last 2 orbits shoved for 300 into small pots - once as a bluff (I guess) with k6 on a 886q8 board when a Pfr checked back the turn (guy folded and he showed). Once with 58 on a 56q47 board when the Pfr also checked the turn and once on the flop and didn't show.

Villain 3 (120) younger white guy. Hasn't played too many hands since he sat down. No real reads but not super stationy or aggro. Maybe a little loose pre but that's about it.

Hero (400) up and down image. Villain 2 doubled through me earlier on a short stack when I iso raised a short stack shove and he cold called $50 with a6o and called a flop ship on a 345 board and hit a straight. Also bluffed me possibly once this orbit when he shipped 300 and I folded and he didn't show. Villain 1 probably knows I'm a decent player. Unknown to v3.

Villain 1 (utg+1) opens to $7
Mp calls
Villain 2 (mp) calls $7
Hero (button) 3h4h calls $7
Villain 3 (sb) calls $7
Bb calls

Flop: Jd 5h 6h
Villain 1 bets $15, mp folds, villain 2 raises to $30, hero calls $30, villain 3 shoves for $112, villain 1 calls $112, villain 2 calls $112, hero calls $112

Turn: Jd 6h 5h 9s
Villain 1 shoves for 285, villain 2 calls 285, hero?

Here's my reads action by action.

Preflop I fold this hand a lot pre, but this is a special circumstance in that V2 is actively trying to donk off his stack and I want to get involved, plus I can have some idea of when I'm behind to V1.

On the flop I debated just raising back. V2 is an aggro maniac and I don't think he's ever folding even a jack here. I don't think V1 has a flush draw, so as long as V3 doesn't have a higher flush draw I thought there's really no reason to raise back when I could just call and try to hit and save money. I don't mind letting V1 call AA and get more money in the pot.

V3 could easily have a set, 2 pair (most likely 65) or I guess possibly the NFD, but he wouldn't HAVE to raise back the NFD. Who knows - he could have AJ and be overplaying it.

I don't know if V1 even calls the nut flush draw here with 2 people left to act behind. I think he has AA-QQ a lot. I would expect him to raise back JJ rather than risk a bad beat, but he could have JJ possibly. V2 is an aggro maniac, so when he just calls I really don't think he has the nut flush draw or Jxhh or I think he'd just shove back. He could easily have any jack or some random 2 pair or even QQ+ and be randomly calling. He also could have a flush draw, which would be very bad for me.

I have at least 8 clean outs (6 non-heart straight cards plus 2 straight flush cards). Also despite the maniac I think the turn may go check/check a lot because V1 may get scared with AA and V2 might figure there's no need to bet into a dry side pot some of the time.


V1 kind of confidently snap shoves, and now I'm worried because I think he has JJ a lot. THe pot is huge, but a lot of fish would get scared now with aces but he doesn't seem worried at all. V2 kind of shrugs and says "well, I guess I have to call." He also showed his buddy standing behind him and it seems like he has some kind of good hand.

I have to call about $280 to win $1050 which is about 3.7-1. I need about 21% equity. Even if V1 has JJ and V2 has AThh or something like that, I have 19% equity. As long as no one has an eight (which would be unlikely) I still have at least 8 outs and as many as 13 (vs a set).

Even if V3 (the short stack) has a higher FD I'm getting 2-1 from the side and I think he has a made hand a lot. If 2 players have sets they kill each others outs and I'm even in better shape.

Is this a spot where I should figure I"m up against a made hand and a dominating draw and fold at some point? Should I have just raise/called the flop?

If I had like bottom pair and a flush draw here I think it's an easy fold on the flop as I likely have just a bare flush draw. Thoughts?


  • TDFTDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Fold PF
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I think pre is borderline. You need specific reads about villains to make this call profitable. Playing against an aggressive maniac doesn't really help, because with this hand you want to see multiple streets cheaply before getting more money in the pot. If the maniac is aggressive with a wide range, you have to invest a lot to see additional cards but can't be sure to get paid off once you hit.
    Still, due to the stack sizes vs. V1 and V2 I can see calling here. Yet, you need to be prepared to face a lot of difficult spots postflop.

    On the flop, I think I am reraising the first time around in order to isolate V2 and shut out the other guys. This hand is similar to the other thread where a pair + flush draw is not really a strong hand vs. multiple opponents, since you are totally crushed if one has a better made hand and one has a better draw.
    Therefore, isolating V2 severely improves your equity.

    As played, their ranges could be something like:
    V1 has KJ, AJ, QQ+, AhTh+, sets
    V2 can have anything
    V3 has JT+, 65, 66, 55, flush draws, 78s

    If that's the case, you probably have 6 clean outs here. => It becomes a fold on the flop once V3 shoves AND V1 calls.
  • PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I really should have 8 clean outs because the 3h and 7h make me a straight flush. Unless someone has specifically 98hh on the flop my straight outs should be good.

    I probably should have just raised back, but if I were to raise back and then V3 shoves and then V1 shoves and then V2 calls (which I'm pretty sure would have happened) then what - just fold? At that point I think V1 has JJ or aces almost always because I dont' think older guys would shove back the NFD. V2 could have anything, and even if I'm severely behind to V3 (which I don't know is necessarily the case) I still have the side.

    I also don't think V3 is going to shove over a bet, raise and cold call with 78 that's not 78hh because guys realize taht straight draws aren't so good on flushing boards.
  • bobo1384bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    If we are raising the flop, what are we raising to, and why are we raising?

    If we raise to $80 or $90 and the guy with $112 still shoves we aren't going to isolate anyone because that closes the action and we end up in the same spot as if we called.

    Also, since V1 isn't cbetting light, I doubt he's folding anything hero is putting him on (QQ+, AJ) for less than $100. I don't think raising to isolate is going to work.

    as played I fold turn because we need 10 clean outs to make a breakeven call and at best we have 8.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Seems like an easy fold ott. I don't like putting in 150 BBs drawing dead. Bigger FDs, made straights, pair+FDs, bigger SD+FDs are all very possible given the heavy action ahead of you. Part of the value of playing 34hh is having some fold equity to make a move which u obv have none of.
  • Re-shove flop. It's not like your nut-low flush and straight outs carry implied odds after this action.

    No one is showing up here w/ a set or 65 after flatting the AI, since they don't want to face a decision if one of the draws come in, and there's a good chance you can fold out middling flush draws or like JThx.

    Even if we just get it AI with SB we come out way ahead w/ the dead money;
    we have 41.8% equity against [JJ,66,55,65,AhJh,KhJh-9h7h,QhJh-8h7h]

    As played fold turn, i guess? It's pretty close and not really a spot to ever get yourself into.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I actually don't consider a straight flush draw a big hand multi-way for the reason that your flush draw could be dominated, so I'm probably folding the flop after a couple people call.
  • PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I actually called the turn. I really thought based on the action that the maniac guy did not have a flush draw because if he's airball bluffing 150bb, he'd just get it in. The PFR guy i thought might not even call a flush draw, and I think he never donk shoves it. So really I was worried about the short stack possibly shoving a draw - but even then I think he doesn't always have draws.

    It actually turned out that I was facing the worst possible hand combinations.

    PFR had JJ (top set) which I expected.
    Maniac guy had J8hh which totally shocked me. He had TP and a FD and didn't shove back. The 9 screws me since 3 of my straight outs now make him a bigger straight.
    Short stack claimed to have AThh.

    River bricked out and the PFR guy won a big pot.

    I guess it's spew - I just really never expect the maniac guy to have a flush draw.

    Just another note - if the board was Jh 6h 5c I probably just fold. But in this case (barring the maniac guy having a random 8 and a 9 rolling off) I have 8 clean outs 2 of which end the hand for me, and I also take away 2 flush outs for bigger flush draws to lock up the hand.
  • Fold pre. Shove over the $112. Calling is so bad. You're giving others a chance with a flush draw. You need to drive out other draws. Snap fold turn, as played. Not even close, really.
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