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busted my 5/10 cherry this weekend...now what?

ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
5/10 Reno Peppermill. The line-up looked good, a few older, tight-ish looking players, some youngish players who looked very competent, and an older, loose, in-every-pot dude. I decided to buy in for 1K. All had me covered, several had 3-4K in front of them (big stacks and thick stacks of hundos behind). I was a little nervous inside...the first pot I got in my heart was pounding so hard after I bet, and when they folded and I raked in my first pot, I was like, "OK, Chris, you can do this!"

Anyway, I played VERY solidly, tight aggressive, was careful about when to and when not to c-bet, used my position, etc, and I chipped up to around $1,600. The old guys left, so it's me and the younger guns. I should have picked up, but I didn't. Frown Anyway, I changed seats, had position on the loose older man and a young guy that was good, so I decided to stay.

Most everyone was button-straddling, which at the Peppermill means you get last action before the flop. I was down to around $1200 when this hand came up:

6-handed, I button straddle to $20. Folds around to BB, another young, very competent player who I hadn't seen make any big mistakes, he value bet thinly, etc. He cavalierly tosses in two red chips to call the straddle. I look down at J8dd and raised to $70, thinking he might fold now, or I could pick up the pot with a flop c-bet. He gives me a light-hearted needle like I'm going to slowly bleed him to death and calls my raise.

Hero (BTN) with J8dd vs. Villain (BB), pot is now $145.

Flop: JJ6cc. He checks. I bet $75. He c/r pretty quickly to $250.

What's my plan for the hand? What should I be thinking about in this spot, keeping in mind my opponent is thinking player, we're 6-handed, and he limp-called my pre-flop raise and now c/r me on a JJ6cc board?

I thought his range had mostly flush draws in it, with some 6's, and that he was trying to get some fold equity with a c/r.

Thanks for all your thoughts on the hand.

Comments

  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Nice - congrats on some good play at $5/10.

    Seems like a WA/WB situation, but I think heavily weighted toward WA because your PFR/CBet carries a very wide range to your opponent and thus his range is much wider than having a better J or 66, including some of the time making a play at you as this a board that PFR misses most of the time.

    My first thought is to raise him for value and play for stacks -- based on aggressive action theorem, your best chance to get it in ahead is if you raise here -- if you just call and another club comes in, it could kill your action (and obviously you could lose too).

    I realize though if you raise here you may be folding out all of his bluffs and only better would continue. For that reason I think calling is viable (and I am leaning toward this) -- its probably the more profitable line (and you get to see what he does on the turn) but you risk being bluffed off of your hand, or losing value when scare cards come in.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    This does look like a good flop for him to make a play. There aren't many types of flops I C/R with air, but if I were to do it, this is the type of flop I might try it on.

    I would probably call down flop and turn. If he's really bombing it on the river, I would consider a fold because when he has a J, it's always a better J, and thinking players will sometimes fastplay 66 here, whereas fish tend to always slowplay.
  • TJTJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    A lot of things here make me think we have the best hand:
    -You're taking a shot, might be scared of the money (he may have figured this out, but if not, see the next point)
    -You've been playing tight
    -This is a great board for you to fire at, and an even better board for him to play back at

    All of that being said, don't you really just have a bluff-catcher here? So, if you're going to bluff-catch, call him down. I think bet-3betting the flop is a sure way to get better to call and worse to fold, so that's a bad option. I say call the flop and evaluate his sizing and such on the turn and river.

    Option: Make a sick raise-fold to like $450, because I think your line screams strength there, so he can only shove back with better hands.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    TJ said

    A lot of things here make me think we have the best hand:
    -You're taking a shot, might be scared of the money (he may have figured this out, but if not, see the next point)
    -You've been playing tight
    -This is a great board for you to fire at, and an even better board for him to play back at

    All of that being said, don't you really just have a bluff-catcher here? So, if you're going to bluff-catch, call him down. I think bet-3betting the flop is a sure way to get better to call and worse to fold, so that's a bad option. I say call the flop and evaluate his sizing and such on the turn and river.

    Option: Make a sick raise-fold to like $450, because I think your line screams strength there, so he can only shove back with better hands.
    TJ, given all your points, I think a SICK bet/3-bet click-back/fold line might indeed be the optimal play, as it looks like I have absolutely no fold equity at that point (even though I would fold to a shove, but he doesn't know that Cool) and looks so strong.

    It took me about a day to realize that is probably the most optimal play with my stack size and my WA/WB situation.
  • TJTJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    Also, Bart, would love for you to weigh in on this one. I literally spent 30 minutes going over this hand in my head.

    My head hurts.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    UPDATE: I called villain's c/r. The pot is $645.

    Turn: Ko. Villain calmly counts out four hundos from his wad, grabs some chips, and sets them all down, betting $465.

    After I threw up in my mouth a little, what now? I have no more info about the villain's hand, except that he fired again strongly on the turn. A min-raise click-back 3-bet on the flop would have done wonders for getting some information in this hand, but I didn't do that.

    I thought for a long time. I thought, "Wow, this would be the sickest fold ever right now." "Wow, what a great spot for him, as he's practically committing my entire stack with that bet." I looked at him a few times. He was looking at me, but not in a creepy, stare-down, super intimidating way. He was just looking at me. I'm sure I looked like fresh meat to him, like the way a cat plays with a mouse before finally killing it and dropping it by the bed.

    Stick with my initial read and call down? Fold??? I thought the K was a great barrel card for him if he puts me on 77-TT or QQ. Thank you for the responses.
  • TDFTDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    I would click back and call. Can't fold trips 60BB deep.
    I 3bet only because it looks weaker than call.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    TJ said

    Also, Bart, would love for you to weigh in on this one. I literally spent 30 minutes going over this hand in my head.

    My head hurts.
    My head hurt all night and the next morning. Cry

    Poker is so much easier in a vacuum, without actually being in the hand in real time. There's something about the game flow and the stress that makes deep, OBJECTIVE, ego-absent analysis difficult at the table in tough situations, especially in situations where giving up on the hand or committing your stack (both courageous acts in different ways) might be involved.
  • TJTJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    reedmylips said
    I'm sure I looked like fresh meat to him, like the way a cat plays with a mouse before finally killing it and dropping it by the bed.
    Love the descriptive language!

    Good barrel card + fresh meat look + OMG-I-HAVE-TRIPS = shove?
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,108Administrator, LeadPro
    I'm not sure why you would click back fold the flop. This really seems like a way ahead way behind situation--why would you want to prevent your opponent from bluffing? If he is never calling with worse then raising can't be right. I doubt with these stacks he is calling with a flush draw.

    Turn bet is committing as I doubt that he bluffs river after you call the turn. For that reason I'd like to not give him a free card with clubs and protect my equity in the pot. Id shove and be pretty happy about it. If BB is second to last to act preflop, I expect him to raise AJ, KJ, QJ and 66. So in reality you are only losing to J9 and JT, both of which you have a fair amount of chop outs against.

    Bart
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    Bart said

    I'm not sure why you would click back fold the flop. This really seems like a way ahead way behind situation--why would you want to prevent your opponent from bluffing? If he is never calling with worse then raising can't be right. I doubt with these stacks he is calling with a flush draw.

    Turn bet is committing as I doubt that he bluffs river after you call the turn. For that reason I'd like to not give him a free card with clubs and protect my equity in the pot. Id shove and be pretty happy about it. If BB is second to last to act preflop, I expect him to raise AJ, KJ, QJ and 66. So in reality you are only losing to J9 and JT, both of which you have a fair amount of chop outs against.

    Bart
    Bart,

    I agree with your reasoning about the flop click-back. And I agree that this is a WA/WB situation. That's why I called the flop. When he bet so confidently on the turn, it smelled much more like I was way behind than way ahead. I thought about all my options, as well as just plain being a little bit intimidated by his bet and his confidence.

    I ended up just calling the turn bet. Even though it looked to villain like I was committed to the hand given my remaining stack size, I was prepared to fold to a club on the river, and if he was prepared to fire away again on a blank river, I wanted to give him that opportunity.

    Turn: Ko Villain bets $465, hero tank calls, pot is $1575. I have about $400-ish remaining.

    River: 9o Villain calmly says, "I'm all in." Hero sticks with initial read and calls. Villain tables (a slow-played pre-flop) AJo. Villain scoops my stack. I poop and go to my room, feeling like I got outplayed and like I couldn't get away from my hand.

    I was so foggy that I didn't even realize on the river that my kicker didn't play until the next morning. Cry

    I posted this hand because I feel like I should have been able to get away from my hand on the turn. However, nobody has suggested a fold on the turn (only call or shove), so maybe I'm just beating myself up a little since it was my first shot at $5/10 and I had been playing so well up until that hand.

    Thanks for the advice, everyone. Feel free to add to it if you want. Thanks!
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Tough hand. I think it makes you feel better and you don't mind me hijacking the thread a bit (there's a point to it!), here's one of my hand at $5/10 that feels similar:

    Not played long with V1 ($600 in stack) but he seems to know what he's doing and solid. V2 is a female reg $1000, tight straight forward and passive. I have both covered. V1 limps UTG, V2 calls from 3 off the button, I have AQdd in SB and I raise to $50. Both call.
    Flop comes AA4 rainbow. I lead for $50 (betting small to try to get value from PPs), V1 raises to $150, V2 folds. I call.
    Turn comes a K. I check, V1 bets $175, I call. After his raise on the flop and my impression of him, I am actually very suspicious that I am behind. Would he raise AJ or worse on the flop to my donk lead? I wasn't sure especially because of my initial impression of him being solid.
    River comes a blank. I check, V1 moves all in for $225. I call. He shows AK for the nuts.

    All my instincts were telling me to fold turn and river both. But it was hard to put him on AK as a UTG limp/call and of course there's only one A left in the deck. Should I have folded? Welcome comments but my thought is that it's hard to fold this to most opponents, and this hand (and yours) comes down to knowing the opponent, which is tough to do when you haven't played with them much.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    One of my biggest new acquired leaks is see polarized river bets everywhere now. So if they are polarized they must be bluffing.. the basic principle is it is rare for any player to shovel money and bet three streets as bluffs. So if it can only be for value then you MUST be behind.

    I really have to focus now and make river calls based on my new found vision.. only to see things that dont exist..

    I didnt do this very well the last couple of weeks, but I just forced myself on sunday to just wake up and realize that if the player is showing alot of strength they just must be strong.. unless there is very specific reasons otherwise.. You just have to give them credit.

    I think the most interesting thing in this post is that the good player with AJ did exactly what you wouldnt expect with a J.. and thats how he got heros whole stack.. He confused you with good play. Just like we hope to do to other players.. As a good player I probably would have lead the flop instead of check raising because if hero had an overpair you just might fold.. but other than that he played the hand pretty well. We just have to learn that playing against good players are going to make it much harder to read ..

    Cry
  • JerseyJayJerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    Bart said

    I'm not sure why you would click back fold the flop. This really seems like a way ahead way behind situation--why would you want to prevent your opponent from bluffing? If he is never calling with worse then raising can't be right. I doubt with these stacks he is calling with a flush draw.

    Turn bet is committing as I doubt that he bluffs river after you call the turn. For that reason I'd like to not give him a free card with clubs and protect my equity in the pot. Id shove and be pretty happy about it. If BB is second to last to act preflop, I expect him to raise AJ, KJ, QJ and 66. So in reality you are only losing to J9 and JT, both of which you have a fair amount of chop outs against.

    Bart
    Why wouldnt he call a flop raise with a flush draw here? Stackes are pretty shallow and he may spaz and get it in with a flush draw, plus doesnt he have odds to call with a flush draw? Also, i think a lot of players flat from blinds with aj, kj, qj, and 66, so i dont think we can discount them. I do. Is that bad? I dont like playing those hands out of position in big pots.

    I wouldnt feelmtoo bad about losing this hand. Look, you both flopped trip jacks. He outkicks you. Your going tomlose the hand, and some money, every time. The question is how much. Im never folding flop. Im probably calling flop. Probably shoving or calling turn. And im probably calling river, although i may have found a river fold there, but id of course be thinking he could be on a busted club draw. Tough hand.
  • This is definitely a cooler, but villain also played his hand well post flop. I think limp/calling with AJ OOP vs. a straddle raise is pretty atrocious, but the rest of the hand is pretty standard. I guess you should just move in on the turn as he may call with his draws, but hand is fine. Flop is definitely a call to keep his bluffs in.
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