Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Villain raises pre and check/raises flop

PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
I'm not really as interested in how I should play a specific hand in this situation, but I'm more interested in what you'd expect villain to have here and whether this is a good play with various hands.

I actually had 7h6h in this spot but I'm more interested in villain's range.

Game is 1/2 $300 max NL

Villain ($300) Younger guy. Just sat down maybe 1 or 2 orbits ago. He's a reg, ipod big headphones talking to staff etc. I've seen him a lot but I don't think I've actually ever played with him. From what I've seen and heard from others he should be a decent thinking player and a winning player at 1/2.

LP ($125) Younger fishy guy. Plays fairly loose but not overly passive. Villain only has 2 orbits on him but I've played with him for a little while and he doesn't seem great.

Hero ($300) Younger guy - probably look like a reg. Maybe villain has seen me there before since I'm in the room all the time but again haven't played with him as far as I can tell. I had a few crazy hands before this hand so maybe he thinks I'm on tilt, although I was in a pretty good mood and joking around with people. No reason for villain to assume I play weirdly trappy or anything.

Folds to villain
Villain (MP) raises to $11
LP calls on the button
Hero (BB) calls

Pot~30
Flop: Jh Th 4s
Hero checks, Villain checks, LP bets $20, Hero calls $20, villain check/raises to $80

Live reads - he was like looking around intensely with kinda shifty eyes when he checked, but I kind of thought that's just his poker face. Looking back I'm assuming when he checked he was planning on raising from the start.

I actually had 7h6h, but lets assume I could have - ATcc maybe, QJss, 67hh, 45hh, A9hh maybe KQo.

It's not that involved of a hand, but I was really having trouble trying to figure out what kind of hand he reps here.

There's only one guy left to act. It's not like he raised UTG and got 4 callers where maybe if he flopped a hand like JJ someone might bet. The board is so wet you'd expect he'd bet JJ or TT or JT to get called by draws and to avoid losing action if a scary card comes out.

If he has a hand like QQ+ or AJ is he really checking this back? Unless he's scared of me somehow but then when I just call he thinks it's safe to raise. It just seems like a CR is almost an overplay here with AA because it's so strong it folds out weaker hands and of course nothing stronger ever folds.

I thought the most likely hands he could have here would be huge draws like an AKhh, AQhh, KQhh. He's actually ahead of a hand like QJ. If it gets checked through he gets a free card, and if we both missed he can probably take it down with a turn bet anyway. It also prevents him getting check/raised by me if I happened to flop something big because AhKh is still only 33% against a set in this spot. He gets probably maximum fold equity against both of us even though the LP guy is short.

Just curious what you expect someone who should be a good thinking player to have in this spot. If I somehow had AhXh (which I probably wouldn't call OOP with), could I ever shove back here? I probably wouldn't call this OOP but if I somehow showed up with that and he had 98hh or KQhh I'd have him 65/35.

Would any of you guys play a royal draw in this way? Just curious.

Comments

  • TDFTDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    There are no good thinking players at 1/2 (when other stakes are available). So he's making mistake here and it's your job to figure out what sort of mistake it is and how to exploit it. If this situation comes very rarely than you won't get many opportunities to exploit it so it doesn't worth an effort - just ignore. If it comes up often you will get a sense of his range.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    If I'm villain in this hand, and I raised pre-flop to $11, got a loose fish and the BB to call, I'm c-betting 100% of the time I have equity on this flop, which means monsters (JJ, TT, JT, 44, and royal draws), less-than-monsters (AJ, AT, KQo, Q9o), and medium to weakish hands (Axhh, AKo, AQo, QJ, QT) as I want to be called by the MANY draws on board.

    Therefore, I don't understand this c/r. I wouldn't expect a loose passive player to bet this board for me if I'm the villain so I could c/r and pump money into the pot with a premium holding. Is villain spewy or overly aggro? Do you think he smelled weakness?
  • TJTJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    TDF said

    There are no good thinking players at 1/2 (when other stakes are available).
    I 100% disagree with this statement.

    As for the hand, it smells an awful lot like a bluff. How does he know if a loose-passive button will bet? I think he bets his value hands after you check, including all combo draws, made hands, and semi-bluffs.
  • PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    It's just really weird. I thought at first he would bet all of his combo draws if I checked, because he shouldn't really expect the other guy to bet.

    On the other hand, is he really bluff raising a short-ish stack and a caller? I probably don't have a monster as I would usually raise. But even if he thinks maybe I'm not a fish am I really always folding here? Is villain really folding a pair of jacks here?

    So I felt like he has to have a hand where he has some equity. Doing this with a hand like 88 seems kind of dumb to me when he could just bet the flop.

    Can I really give a 1/2 player, even a good 1/2 player credit for checking this flop with a hand with little equity, then recognizing that a bet and just a call from me might be weak, and having some idea that the guy who bet the flop might fold?
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    TDF said

    There are no good thinking players at 1/2 (when other stakes are available). So he's making mistake here and it's your job to figure out what sort of mistake it is and how to exploit it. If this situation comes very rarely than you won't get many opportunities to exploit it so it doesn't worth an effort - just ignore. If it comes up often you will get a sense of his range.
    I don't think it's possible for me to disagree with this statement more.

    Taking non-standard lines at low stakes is often FPS, but once in a blue moon I may play a huge draw this way if I think that I can get more $$ in the pot if people won't fold dominated draws.
  • Isn't this usually an overpair?

    I know people rip this play apart with an overpair, but when I raise pf and am OOP against a loose pf caller who autobets any time the pf raiser checks to them, I will make this play. Most of the time they have nothing and will fold if you bet. Yes, you can lose value from hands like tp, but you at least get one more bet against players who whiffed. And in my experience, a lot of 1/2 players will just stack off w AJ in this spot. Then they say something like "You only raised $10 with aces?" Since they believe you should always raise small with drawing hands and large with big pairs...
  • PokerIsFrustratingPokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Would you guys ever shove back here? As I said I had a low flush draw. I probably shouldn't even call OOP if the guy can cbet. I thought about check/raising the field bettor but he was a little short. I thought it was unlikely the PFR would overcall or CR since you'd think he would just bet - therefore I didn't think I needed to fold him out. If the LP guy doesn't have much, if a scare card comes, or if he's just bad he checks the turn a lot so I get 2 cards a lot and if the turn is super scary like an ace, queen etc I can sometimes fire the river and get him to fold.

    I just don't think I rep anything at all if I shove back. My draw isn't good enough to stack so I just folded.
  • TDFTDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    JeffLisciandrello said
    I know people rip this play apart with an overpair, but when I raise pf and am OOP against a loose pf caller who autobets any time the pf raiser checks to them, I will make this play. Most of the time they have nothing and will fold if you bet. Yes, you can lose value from hands like tp, but you at least get one more bet against players who whiffed.
    I'd like to try and rip it apart :) If they call PF wide and fold most of the time when whiffed then correct adjustment would be to open wider and cbet 100% - this way you make way more money cause you can recreate this situation over and over any time you want comparing to winning slightly more with overpairs which are rare.
Sign In or Register to comment.