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I feel like I'm supposed to continue here, but...

UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
Villain is one of the only 2/5 regs at Borgata who might give me trouble once in a while. It was Marcus, for those of you who play at Borgata. He manages to get away with play LAG in a $500 cap game which is pretty hard to do

I was working on the seat change thing. "Change seats" would be the most obvious suggestion here. This was my first hand at the table

Hero sits down and takes the BB
Villain straddles UTG
4 limpers and hero limps with AJo
Villain raises to $65
Everybody folds, and I stubbornly call because I have AJ

What do I do on a 555 flop? I have to call a cbet because a lot of the time he's going to have a worse A high, right?
Then what do I do on various turn cards when I don't hit an A or J? It goes without saying that I'm going to check if I hit a pair, definitely if I hit an A, because he has to barrel an A.

Or to make this hand less annoying to play, should I just raise out of the BB pre-flop? He tends not to defend his straddle too wide when I raise.


  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    What were the effective stacks? I think this is a raise or fold pre flop. I think calling her is bad unless you planned to 3bet his likely or inevitable raise. I guess the question I would ask myself is whether or not I want to play a bloated flop oop if I raise, or do I want to play passively post flop tryin to hit the flop. A 555 flop is no good for your hand. Youare going to spend a lot of money to hit your A or J, even if you are ahead of a weaker A.I think you just fold to his cbet, you can find a better spot.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Well, I just sat down, so it's $500 effective

    A large percentage of his straddle steal range is Ax, so AJ is almost always the best hand pre, so I can't really fold. But if I 3bet, I'm basically turning my hand into a bluff because I can't really get action from worse.

    I obviously wasn't just calling pre to hit an A or J. Sometimes I'm going to make a move, but I don't think a 555 flop is the best to C/R
    And if I hit an A, I'm going to get stacks in with a worse A almost all the time by just checking and letting him bet

    Oh, and a 555 flop is one of the best flops you can hope for when you don't flop a pair with AJ against the kind of range he's raising
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    You might consider check-raising either flop or turn in order to get more money from the weaker part of his range. Given your description of villain, this should be a profitable move. You just need to fasten your seatbelt and embrace variance, as it will go through the roof.
  • TDFTDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Why limp PF? The only reason I see is to limp/reraise if he's raising his straddle often. Normally I would just raise PF big and try to get money in PF and almost never fold postflop. You're only 50BB deep. AJ is ahead of LAG range so get your money in. This is the only way to combat good LAG.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I don't know why this guy straddles in a $500 max buyin game, but like I said before, he manages to make loose profitable. These shallow stacks make it really annoying with a hand like this sometimes.

    He doesn't raise every single time, because that would be very unbalanced. Probably no more than 30% of the time. Hands that he would normally raise UTG, broadway hands that don't flop great, a lot of Ax hands, and a few random steals with complete garbage

    Actually, shoving the flop might not be a terrible option against this guy if he's capable of hero calling with A high sometimes thinking I'm full of it. But the problem is I'm tighter pre-flop, so a lot of the hands I call his raise with are going to be better than a crappy A high already. So I'm not sure if he's calling if it's against me.

    Once this guy was playing a reg who does weird shit (kind of like Harry from LATB), and this guy overshoved a K55ss flop as a bluff. And villain in this hand called the flop with Q8ss
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Claire said

    Actually, shoving the flop might not be a terrible option against this guy if he's capable of hero calling with A high sometimes thinking I'm full of it. But the problem is I'm tighter pre-flop, so a lot of the hands I call his raise with are going to be better than a crappy A high already. So I'm not sure if he's calling if it's against me.
    If I decide to check-raise the flop, my intend is not to get a call, but rather to get another bet from a big part of his range which he then has to fold. Let's say he cbets frequently but has to fold like 75% of his range to a check-raise, we gain so much money that it compensates those cases where he does call. Also, we have at least some equity against most of his calling range. It's basically a huge semi-bluff, knowing he can't be all that strong.
  • JohnnyBestJohnnyBest Posts: 33Subscriber
    Another way to look at this is from your opponent's view. Since you describe him as a LAG, he may know that he is a LAG and uses that to his advantage. If he is betting into you here, he more than likely has you beat. Fold on the flop. This is the best option. One of the things that these type of players do is try and get you to come after them. They can usually just sit back and wait until you're frustrated. Then, when the money goes all in, they'll have close to the nuts. Don't fall for his shenanigans!

    Also, before the flop, I would take into consideration the remaining players before deciding to raise or call. Someone may be lying in wait for your LAG to raise and the re-raise him. The limpers could also call his raise with holdings better than yours. This would put you in an awkward spot, especially if an ace hit. Hope this helps.
    - John
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    JohnCawley said

    Also, before the flop, I would take into consideration the remaining players before deciding to raise or call. Someone may be lying in wait for your LAG to raise and the re-raise him. The limpers could also call his raise with holdings better than yours. This would put you in an awkward spot, especially if an ace hit.
    - John
    Villain is sitting on our direct left, so we are closing the action.
  • AlexBAlexB Posts: 160Subscriber
    When playing true LAGs out of position, you're going to have to hide information about your hand. And you'll have to gamble a little bit (ok, ok, gamble a lot)

    You're crushing his range with AJo, so folding is not an option here. I think you can easily fold small pairs preflop because they play terribly after the flop, or you
    can 3-bet them, but if he is a LAG you should expect to get called often and give up after the flop if you miss, or call down on certain boards.

    It's important to have history with this guy. What if you had AA in the BB? Were you going to raise pre-flop (to be clear, you shouldn't raise or re-raise him).
    I would check-call this flop 100% of the time. He doesn't know what you have... you could have a pair, AK-AT, etc. This is a good flop for AJ. If you were ahead pre-flop you should still be ahead 98% of the time. If you were behind, i.e. he happened to have a pair, then, he will surely slow down on the turn. For eg. if
    he has 33,44,66 type of hand, and the turn is T,J,Q,K,A he is going to check behind. This is because you could have a bigger pair or Ax which pairs the kicker.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Alex has it 100% .. If you are trying to play this hand as a trap then you have to trap.. Let him bluff his stack off.. I wouldnt check raise him unless you are specifically trying to protect your equity.. but as we said you are probably way ahead way behind.. Another thought is if you think this guy would fold a small pair to your shove then I think that is a good option as well.

    But you must realize that when you get called you need to hit either of your cards.. J might not even be good .. So maybe 3 outs and thats it..

    That said.. If I knew i was playing against a good player who has position on me and can make my life miserable, I am generally going to fold preflop given that I limped with AJ.. Why play against him? I have been making a concerted effort lately to try and fold hands against good players preflop and just try to concentrate on the bad ones.

  • AlexBAlexB Posts: 160Subscriber
    LAGs thrive on information advantage. They know if you just called, you're likely weak or you have a monster. So if they don't get raised they keep firing. The problem is that most people are not willing to stack off with a mediocre hand, and they use it to their advantage. If you deny them information by calling them down with value hands like AA,KK as well as AJ,55,66, etc. then they cannot know what you have. So they can't really put you on a range of hands except that
    your range is tight and most of the time has them beat. So let's say you called him down with AA this time all the way, and you were good. Next time, when you start calling him down you could have AQ, AJ and the LAG will adjust. He know you could have AA or KK, so he is going to back off a bit. Now he may get gun
    shy and not fire so many barrels against you.

    Maybe AJ is not the best hand to call him down with, but if he is a true lag, he will continue firing. And I'll continue calling since I probably have over 80% equity
    with AJ against his range. If you're not comfortable calling down with A-hi on that board, you should fold preflop. You cannot play your hand such that if you miss you fold, because the times when you hit, he'll have nothing, and when the turn goes check-check and you bet the river, he'll simply fold. Since it's hard to make a strong hand he will rob you blind if you let him, and not pay you off when you hit. So you just have to start to call him down with medium to strong hands all the way. Sometimes you will loose, other times you'll win a nice pot. Given his wide range, you will have a built in advantage over him in the long run
  • I think Alex has some very solid advice here.

    Being a LAG, the only thing I would add is that if your opponent is good he will be adjusting to you quickly. You need to keep your eyes open for adjustments from him ASAP. Not only do LAGs thrive on Information Advantage (it is there bread and butter) but also in the adjustment war. Most player make few adjustments. Some never. But the good players are always adjusting to your play.

    This LAG could be at a table playing everyone with very wide ranges and playing you as a total Nit. It is one of the advantages of playing a LAG style.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    it is pretty tough to have AJ beat on 555 flop vs a true LAG (in the straddle no less! god bless him if he picked up a pur in the straddle). i think check / call down is the optimal line. if you bet, you can't really get called by worse (possibly AT/A9/A8 depending on what level you guys are playing each other), but i think even LAGs will pot control a bit with hands that have some show down value and some perceived outs to improve.

    honestly, i can think of a few LAGs against whom i would basically just close my eyes and call down as light as KJ high on a 555 flop, especially considering the weakness everybody showed pre by limping to his straddle. (possible KJ might be a crai on the turn to get A high to fold).

    obv it is pretty polarizing if he bets 3 streets, and it's tough to make a good hand, so..........
  • BigOwlBigOwl Posts: 80Member
    Good conversation in this thread guys. Claire I don't understand why you would choose to limp here. For me this is a raise to 60-70 every time. I think we want a lower spr and fewer players with a top pair type hand, and I want control. And if you're going to limp call then for sure a raise is better.
  • AlexBAlexB Posts: 160Subscriber
    To BigOwl: I completely disagree... this is exactly the wrong adjustment to make against a LAG. You want to limp call and not raise. If you raise he will fold everything worse, or call in position and make your life miserable by floating, bluff raising, etc.

    You have to exploit the LAG. What's the mistake LAGs make? Put too much $$$ in the pot with too weak of a hand. You exploit that by calling them down with
    a stronger hand range. In the long run, you will win.

    But as JCW said, the good LAG will adjust to you. Once you call him down with a hand like KK all the way, he won't be able to barrel you off. So, what YOU do is
    you start to peel with slightly weaker hands. Now when he raises in the straddle you can call him with a small pair like 66, knowing that if he fires 2 streets you can now give up and your pair is no good. So the LAG will try to avoid raising you, and he will give you more free cards to get to showdown.
  • BigOwlBigOwl Posts: 80Member
    We're not adjusting to the lag until we're in a hand with him, when it gets to us the pot is 6 ways.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I don't know why some of you are assuming that villain will mindlessly barrel three streets on the driest board possible, just because he is loose and aggressive in general. Good lags know which cards to barrel on. 555 is not a favourable board to do this. So, either he is good, then he won't just barrel through with the majority of his range. Or, he's spewy, then we should play differently vs. him, but the description by Claire doesn't include such reads.
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