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Fun with PLO8.. Bart/Chilidog can you critique my call?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
I rarely get a chance to play straight PLO8 as a cash game. Today i got my chance at Foxwoods. Its a 1/2 PLO with no bring in. I would like to review two hands I played and get feedback. I really feel that there is a huge gap between players that have a clue and the ones that dont. Much much more so than in holdem so I would really like to feel as confident that I played correctly leading into the wsop.

Hand #1. Betting the mega wrap and uncounterfeitable low against super bozo..
Guy has come to the table and is potting preflop every hand. Each time he loses his 100 buy in he has rebought. he is on buy in number 4. I call the 12 or 14 bet pre with A236 nut in dias and something like 6 other players call too..

edit: sorry i had a356. ambien and posting dont mix. lol

Flop comes 459 two clubs..

edit: sorry was on abien trying to type this last night .. flop was 2 4 9

i check to bozo because he doesnt have much left and I want to isolate him with a reraise since I am next to act and I have about 500 behind.. He accomodates me and goes all in for something like 65.. I pot it to like 225 and to my surprise boxo #2 calls me from my left.

Turn brings a brick k but I feel I have to use that as a scare card and I go all in for my last 150. boxo 2 calls quickly.. river is a 2 and I miss everything.. boxo 2 has Aq34 rainbow and wins in a scoop on the side pot since his dueces with a q is better than my hand.. so brutal .. he called pot bets with just a nut low only draw nothing else really. So my question is did I overplay the wrap given my stack? Being as deep as I was should I have bet smaller on each street?

I think my equity in the pot haveing the low that was locked up and the straight wrap around a combined 80% so it was rather unlucky I missed both..

Hand #2
So I rebought another 100 and with the 80 or so left over I built my stack a little here a little there and now have about 300 before this hand.. I have been in the game for hours and have not hit a draw to save my life. I am being aggressive betting my equity rather than my made hands as 8 out of the ten players are..My image is probably that I am not "lucky". Villain in this hand seems like a player playing more omaha hi than low and therefore is not playing proper..
Its limped around and I have AJ23 ds with nut in clubs and j3 of another suit. I raise pot pre to around 14 get 5 or 6 callers. I am on the button..

Flop comes 8c Qs 4d... Now player bets into the field from the blind and two us call.. me and a guy on my direct right.. I have back door nut flush and straight draws and nut low draws with any a, 2, 3, 5,6,etc...

Turn comes 10 clubs.. now the player goes all in for 135.. pot have about 150-160.. I am thinking that I am now 25% to hit a low and about 18% to hit a high I will scoop if any club comes and I can chop the pot if any card 8 and under hits. I think this villan has made a Q high straight but doesnt have anything else with it. Do you call the all in on the turn?

I had a third hand where I raised pre with AJ25 double suited nutted in club and the

flop came JT9 all clubs.. A player relatively knew and very quiet bets 35 (about pot). he has about 300-350 and so I just call to see what he does. I have the ace high flush..

Turn brings a 2 dia changes nothing.. Now he bets 75.. I call thinking if he does have a flush he is sure to check the river..

River 3 dias.. and now villain goes all in. I tank and tank and tank but given my image as a good player who is reading hands well I just cant imagine anyone would not bet into me three times without having the straight flush.. So I fold.. I dont show my A5 clubs but he does show me the 78 clubs.. At the table some of the other players though I folded the king high flush but nope I folded the ace high flush.. Later when I was racking my chips to leave I had to give the guy another little dig since I am not sure anyone at the table would have folded my hand except me. Then he says " That I was owned by the hammah" hehe turns out he watched latb and is also a subsriber on seat open poker. He wouldnt tell me his name but I would love to get his opinion of the hand as I think its rare would could get both sides..So whoever you were that I played with on sat at the foxwoods plo8 game please come forward and present yourself so we can have a discussion!

really now cant wait for vegas.. This is just an unreal game.. even if I only won 100 bucks in 12 hours playing (the two pots above were for a total of 1100) and there was another pot where on the turn I had nut nut and got rivered by someone who had same low but now had a flush and that was for a 700 pot. win one of those and I am sitting pretty..

But I am so excited and happy with my play.. I feel like I played my best poker every today.. what a feeling!



  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Something wrong with info in first hand. River 2 gives u nut low and straight.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Hand 1: I would try to keep the pot multiway on the flop in order to get more money in from other guys who are basically drawing dead. Why do you want to get the hand heads up with so much equity?

    Edit: sorry, I misread the suits, forget what I said.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Nice, Foxwoods spreads PLO8? I am neither Bart nor Chili but I have played a lot of PLO8 on-line and in homegames.

    Hand 1: I agree w chili -- sounds like the Q came on the river? Giving V2 a pair of queens and you neither a low nor a high? Also, I don't understand the seating at the table. You are next to act after the bozo, but somehow you are able to check before him, c/r, then V2 pops in to call you? Either V2 called Bozo and you c/raised them both, or you are after the bozo, raised him and got called by V2?

    In any case, question is whether this is a push or pull type of hand (do you want multiple callers to bloat pot or shut people out of the hand and realize your equity now)? I think since you do not have the NFD, many of your SDs are to the non-nuts, and your low draw could be chopped, you'd prefer to realize your equity now and push hard. However, realize that at these stakes no-one is folding to your c/r if the've already committed to the bozo's shove, so although c/ring is normally strong, in this game it's unlikely to illicit folds. I would be also be fine with a simple lead-out here as you are ok with the bozo folding here as well and giving his equity up in the pot.

    Hand 2: Given you have have draws to the nuts, and need to be good about 1/3 times, this is a call. Even if he has the stone nuts (even if with a FD you have that beat), it's about a coin-flip - example below.

    Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation ?
    40 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: 8c Qs 4d Tc
    Hand Equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
    Ac Js 2c 3s 48.75% 11 11 0 21 0
    jd 9d td kc 51.25% 12 29 0 0 0

    I call and hope the 3rd guy calls so you get even better pot odds and his stack if you hit.

    Hand 3: This one is very read dependent. Against Bozo of course you need to figure out how to best get his money in and fist pump. Against someone that you think knows the game well, however, your reasoning makes perfect sense that many K high and lower non straight flushes would shut it down quickly OOP, perhaps even on the turn. If they did shut it down and check, I would bet for value. But with a 3 barrel and you having the AhighF, a good player wouldn't be showing up with a lower flush, and something like KQcc is definitely figuring prominently in their range and nice fold. Actually 78cc is a bit surprising given you raised PF -- these middle cards are horrendous -- he must have had A2 or AA to go with it or I would expect that hand to fold OOP.

    PLO8 is great game -- glad you enjoyed and glad to hear they are spreading it live!
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sorry gang.. flop in hand 1 was 2 4 9..
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    In hand 1 w new flop, doesn't that mean that you have trip deuces with an A kicker at the river? you beat boxo 2 who has plays his AQ?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    i had a356 w a suited ace. no 2. sorry was typing on ambien last night.
  • Wendy,

    Hand 1: I'm not sure of your reasoning as to why you would want to jam up hand 1. I actually want people in the pot there because if a low card comes you have loads of freeroll equity. Force your opponents to make a mistake by just calling. This is a dream spot.

    EDIT: I didnt notice that the board had two clubs. I don't have a problem driving out some BS flush draws then.

    Hand 2:

    This hand demonstrates the difference between PLO8 and Big O. With counterfeit protection in PLO8 I'm not folding. In big O unless you are dealing with morons the chances are very high that you are drawing to only a quarter if a low comes in--and chances are a board pairing flush card would not be good. Hand values change so much with 5 cards.

    Hand 3:

    Good read, good fold. This is akin to in holdem having the nut flush when there are four of a suit out there and someone is putting their stack in over the top of yours. (see this week's episode of CLP!!)

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Hand 1 : had I known that the fish was such a calling station I would have never tried to iso because it just wouldnt work. no matter what draw he had he always called. So later in the session I did get my revenge against him when true to form he called me all the way to the river when I had nut nut and doubled me up..

    I also think that given I didnt have a made hi and so many folks in these smaller games just dont fold, I think I probably would just call and try to hit my hand. Also later in the session I played like that with another wrap draw, hit the river and got paid off.. The players are simply not good enough to fold and no one and I mean no one was trying to put anyone on a range..

    Hand 2: I called. My thinking was exactly what seems to be everyones consensus. I figured bozo had a straight and I thought I had the right equity to make the call. I didnt like it but I am happy I did. i was right and my flush and low both would have been good..

    Hand 3: So the kid was a stone when I kept looking at him. He hadnt played much at all and I just honestly couldnt fathom him betting wo the straight flush. I was surprised too he had the 78 because those are generally not so good to have. he didnt show the other two but it wouldnt surprise me if he didnt have Awheel. There were two players seeing every single flop. I have no idea if he is good or bad but he knew who I was and said he was a subscriber.. Would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall for the table discussion after I left.. :-)
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Wendy, there is a good PLO8 book out there. I think the author's name is Dan Deppen. In case you haven't read it, check it out.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    Wendy, there is a good PLO8 book out there. I think the author's name is Dan Deppen. In case you haven't read it, check it out.
    Cool.. I was planning on getting Ed Miller's hand reading book.. I will get Dan's too.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    hand 1:
    this is a good hand to be aggressive with. bozo #2 shouldn't be calling with just a pair+nut low draw. remember though, when he cold calls your flop raise, it's not likely he's folding for $150 more. i think i wait to put the rest in, so i can 3/4 him when i hit the NL+straight.

    hand 2:
    seems like a standard call. btw - your high draw on the turn should be better than an 18% flush draw, you should count 3 more kings that would also give you the nuts.

    hand 3:
    without a great read, i'm still leaning towards a call here. i heard it's pretty tough to flop a straight flush these days. plus he can bet for value with K and possibly even queen high flushes since he hasn't yet been raised by you. against the right player, folding would cross my mind, and i might even be able to do it vs the nittiest of nits.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber

    I forgot about the king too on hand #2.

    In hand #1 I really feel that with a low wrap and no made hand I really want as many players in the hand that I can get so the pot is bigger. Secondly since so many dont fold with little fold equity and no hand if I wiff I am stacking with little showdown value.. Another reason to not raise and protect my stack.

    As far as hand #3. This guy was playing very snug. It just seemed unlikely that he would be betting three streets with the K high flush.. I was worried on the flop actually but I knew he wouldnt bet all three street without the straight flush. I expected the check on the river. and if he had actually I would have value bet so he probably should have checked. Especially since he knew who I was and thought I was a good player.

    hmmm.. maybe he has seen all the coolers on LATB and just assumed I would call.. lol.. could be.. but I am a much much better player than I was even 6 mos ago.

    btw. he sent me a pm on 2+2 and said hi. Not sure if he is a subscriber over here.. but I would really like to know what cards he was playing. 78 clubs without Awheel or 23 is a pretty bad hand in PLO8

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