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A Couple of Tough Spots 4 handed 5-10NL

At the Bike last night $5-10 NL

Villain is a big winner live. As good as it gets in terms of live reads he's Dash Dudley and and mainly plays PLO. I've never seen him showdown a bluff and Chilidog can speak to this. 2 donks we are going after in the other seats.

HAND 1: $2500 eff

I open Ah Kd UTG to $35 folded to him in BB he makes it $150 I call.

FLOP: Kh 7h 6h

He bets $175. I call.

Turn 9c. He bets $325, I call.

River 5c . He bets $700.

HAND 2 $1500 eff

Villain opens $35 UTG I 3 bet to $100 on button with Ts Tc, he 4 bets to $330, I call.

FLOP: 8s7s3h

He bets $$425, I call.

Turn 2c. He moves in.

Would love your responses even though these are mainly read dependent situations. I'm going to talk about these hands on Tuesday.



  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Bart, in order to give a reasonable answer, I'd like to know a few more things about the villain?

    Hand 1:
    Bart said
    I've never seen him showdown a bluff
    Do you mean you are confident that he has a very small / non-existent bluffing range in general? Or are you saying you haven't really played long enough with him to judge this? I am asking because you also said he's a big winner, so he definitely should bluff at least some of the time, right?
    Do you think he is capable of 3betting an UTG opener with a polarized range, e.g. with Ax types of hands as bluffs with blockers? If so, do you think he would ever run a 3 barrel bluff on you?

    What's villain's perception of you, in your opinion?

    Hand 2:
    What was your intention to 3bet his early position open? Was this 3bet for value? How did you expect him to react with the different parts of his range? Is he capable of 4betting you with a polarized range (i.e. including bluffs)?
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    First hand, Bart,

    This is tough. Is your villain pretty competent with short-handed play? In other words, is he opening up his pf 3-betting range, or is it still like a 7-9-handed pf 3-bet range? If he's opening up his range a lot, he could be opening with some suited connectors (QJ, JT, T9, 98 all of hearts), and could have a flopped a flush or have a straight by this point. I would think though, that if he had a lower flush (you have Ah blocker) that he might bet larger, as he your hand could easily contain the Ah in it after you call flop.

    Your hand seems somewhat under-repped, and I could see him bet all three streets with a KQxh, KJxh type of hand as well.

    Of course, he might also be bet/folding all three streets with AA as well.

    Range: some combos of flopped flushes (let's say 3 combos, as some he sizes larger than he did), AA (3 combos), KQxh, KJxh. You're beating 2 combos, losing to 6 combos. How many of his combos would he fold if you shoved the river? That is the question.

    Of course, I don't have the balls to shove the river on that board after that action, because it doesn't look like he's folding. But you're Bart Hanson, and you know poker (and this villain) pretty well, so I'm curious to hear the results! Laugh
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    When you say you've never seen him showdown a bluff, do you mean that his bluffs are so good that everyone always folds when he bluffs? Then, I would call him once in a while when his line looks like a value hand, just to see what's going on.

    Hand 1
    I would so love to shove as a bluff against a thinking player. But because you advocating fast playing the nut flush on the flop, he might call the river with worse if he listens to your material, taking out many combos of the nut flush from your range ;)
    Maybe in some cases it's a chop when you both have AK, sometimes

    Hand 2
    This is why I dislike 3-betting hands like JJ and TT for value against anyone who has a 4-bet bluff range. Unless it's a tournament and I'm shallow enough to get it in, like in a tournament. Would he really be taking his line as a bluff on a low and somewhat connected board?
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    If I wanted to pick a hand to randomly hero call against a guy whose bluffs are good enough that everyone always folds, I would pick hand 2. Because your hand is more face-up in hand 2 than hand 1, unless you're known for flatting 4-bets with AA to trap
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Whose Dash Dudley?

    Hand 1: Depends on his OOP 3-betting PF range -- is it wide or narrow? The way you describe him, let me just assume it's pretty narrow for the sake of analysis. I put him on likely KKs or AK here (I don't see many flopped flushes possible since you have the Ah here; not sure how often he 3bets OOP lower PPs or suited connectors, but of course possible). There's only one combination of KK left so the AK is much more likely. Also I wonder if a hand with showdown value but vulnerable to a slowplayed flush e.g. set would have checked the river instead (unless he is truly a Bart Hanson style value-fiend). Thus, I actually think shoving here is optimal to get him off of AK and hands that can't beat a flush. I'm really only worried about KK and 8h8x that could call a river shove here in this good player vs. good player situation, and there are not enough combos of these.

    Hand 2: Again assuming a narrow range, I think a 4-bet UTG PF means he has you beat all the time -- range QQ+. Since you don't think he bluffs, and you have a pure bluff catcher (and probably the one hand he could be bluffing here is AsKs vs. many value hands that you lose to), I fold. I probably would have folded PF.

    Obviously you know the player better --c urious to hear more on the podcast.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Oh, I just noticed that this is 4-handed - I missed the title before, and my previous analysis was based on full ring. I think this means you can't assume as narrow a 3-bet OOP PF betting range anymore -- and you may get called down lighter if you shove in hand 1. Much tougher to analyze now, I really think this becomes dynamic/read dependent. From a metagame sense, I would probably try err in staying out his way since your whole goal is to target the other 2 guys.
  • Thanks for the responses guys. I ended up folding in both spots. I'll talk about these hands at length in the show this week.

  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Bart, I don't understand what kind of range you put villain on in hand 1 after his river bet. In the podcast you talk about possible two pair combos and straights that beat you. But at the same time, you say he doesn't really bluff. So what type of range do you expect him to 3bet you with from OOP? In order to have 2 pair or a straight by the river, villain has to 3bet suited connectors and/or Kx hands with a low kicker.
    However, if he does 3bet such non-premium hands, this means that he also can have a lot of hands that didn't hit and therefore have to bluff (otherwise, he would end up being a fit or fold player, which doesn't go together with "a big winner live").

    So, what can villain have other than AA and one combo of KK? What kind of flush can he have with the Ah in your hand?
    I am not sure if it is a call. I am just trying to understand if there's an inconsistency in your reasoning or if I don't get it.
  • Hey Whats,

    Good questions. But this was 4 handed holdem and what I mean by saying that this guy doesn't bluff was that he doesn't put considerable amounts of money in the pot without having it. I definitely think that he is capable of three betting light--but never think that he would follow up with a three street bluff for that type of money. SO yes, all of those hands--suited connectors, random two pair hands, I don't discount from his range. I don't consider 3 betting light preflop 4 handed to really be "bluffing". And the problem for me is he is not polarized on the river which makes it an incredibly difficult bluff catch.

  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Thanks for the clarification, Bart.

    To me, the two hands have some similarities. IMO hand 1 depends a lot on his 3betting range and how you expect him to proceed with the non-value part of it postflop. Hand 2 hinges on the question if he 4bets with non-premium hands and how he proceeds with them against you.
    In other words: If his reraising range includes non-premiums also but he won't put significant money in the pot without a strong hand, he has to give up with a lot of hands postflop!

    BTW, I was surprised to see that you called the big cbet in hand 2 but folded on the turn. My gut feeling was that I would either fold the flop or call both streets, but I don't really know how to explain my reasoning.
  • BTW a little birdie (mutual friend) told me that Dash flopped a flush on the first hand and had QQ on the second.

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