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2/2 plo: pot control or ship the turn?

chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
game was live 2/2 plo on LATB last week. i made it over to the bike after busting the lapc plo/plo8 tourney in pretty brutal fashion, and was having fun in the game. there were a lot of newbies to plo that night and most players were pretty bad. when they put up the vpip numbers, i had the highest %, and that was on purpose. my thinking was that the more flops i see, the more opportunities they have to make mistakes.

villian: elliot is not an experienced plo player and had said something earlier that i think was referring to playing some micro NL live game (is there a game called $80NL at the bike?). so my read was that he probably would make some mistakes and may be somewhat scared money.

also of note: i won what turned out to be the biggest pot of the entire session the hand immediately before this hand in a 4bet pot. i called 4 bets in position with KQT9ds, after another splashy guy opened/called 4bets with 4455. flop was TT8 and the guy with AAxx insta-shipped, i insta-called, and he said \"ooooooohhhhhhh, do you have a ten?\", i said yes, then he rolled over AA88, having flopped a boat. he claimed that he mis-read his hand and and thought he had AA87, but whatever, i filled up on the river. so my image is probably aggressive and winning.

stacks: elliot $204 -- utg+1, me: $680 -- utg+2.

preflop:
seat 4 (elliot) opens pot to $8 utg+1. i call utg+2 with KJT9r. matt affleck calls on the button. blinds fold.

flop ($28)
Jd-9c-4h. elliot continues for $16, i snap raise to $50. mcmatto folds. elliot thinks and calls.

turn ($128)
5d. (board is J94-5 w/ two diamonds). elliot checks with 1 pot sized bet behind -- i think he had $136 behind. hero ?
pots? bets small? pot control checks behind?

i seem to have lost a few big pots lately by playing top 2 pair aggressively in plo (and yes i know that 2 pair is not a big pot hand in plo). i did have a re-draw to a Q here, and i thought there was a good chance he would fold unless he picked up diamonds, but the 5d was basically a blank in my eyes. if i\'m against a strong player, i think i would rather call, call, fold river to further aggression unimproved, but against elliot i thought i had some fold equity.

thoughts on turn action?
(by the way -- gavin griffin who was announcing, did not call the action correctly on the turn in the video. but it would be better to give a response before you watch it anyway.)

Comments

  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Quick reaction. Given how short you are and him checkin after Chet I would bet pot here. I think he'd lead a set and you have blockers to the top two. In addition to your straight outs you have fh outs to the nuts. If he has a draw you are ahead but happy to fold out his equity. I also think his check means he folds here more in PLO than nlhe. Also scared money read argues for fe if you shove.

    Even if he has a strong wrap and fd you are ahead if called


    Omaha Hi Simulation ?
    40 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Jc 9d 4h 5d
    Hand Equity Wins Ties
    Kc jd 9h ts 55.00% 21 2
    Kd qh tc 8d 45.00% 17 2
  • JamesSuhJamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    Shipit
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I don't get the question. Is there any reasonable alternative to betting big? The board is draw-heavy, so you don't want to give a free card, and the remaining stacks are perfect to get your money in. There are many worse hands that will call, but very few hands that beat you. Ship it!
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    My question is are there enough made hands that beat me in his range that he is playing passively (in addition to big draws), where I should slow down and try to get to showdown? And/or is the flop raise with only 8 outs to improve too spewy? Should I have pot-raised the flop instead of 3x?
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    chilidog said

    My question is are there enough made hands that beat me in his range that he is playing passively (in addition to big draws), where I should slow down and try to get to showdown? And/or is the flop raise with only 8 outs to improve too spewy? Should I have pot-raised the flop instead of 3x?
    On the flop, you have top two with a gutshot, an overcard, and blockers to a wrap. Plus, the third card is very low, making a set in villain's EP opening range pretty unlikely. I don't know which better hands he could have? I think you have MUBS if you don't want to get this hand in. The only argument against raising the flop is the third player left to act, IMO.
    Also, vilain is much more likely to call with worse hands on the turn than on the river.

    Lastly, I am not sure what to think about calling with this hand preflop from EP. But if you hesitate to get your money in on one of the best flops you cold ask for, I think you should fold pre.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Also, villain should not expect you to fold much on this turn card after you raised him OTF. Therefore, and with these stack sizes, he would often bet his made hands himself, since he has to fear a check behind on this drawy board. This fact makes a better hand even more unlikely.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I agree with what's. However, I will say that recently I've seen more checking of very strong hands OOP in PLO, I think a deceptive move to play opposite of conventional wisdom to bet strong hand hard. I am looking for spots incorporate this in my play as well.

    However, until I see that from a specific villain I don't think you should worry about that and just hand-read. It's really hard to see him with better here and if he has a set then note that he can slowplay and play future hands against him accordingly. I also think this decision is easier given elliott only has ~pot-sized bet left.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said
    chilidog said

    My question is are there enough made hands that beat me in his range that he is playing passively (in addition to big draws), where I should slow down and try to get to showdown? And/or is the flop raise with only 8 outs to improve too spewy? Should I have pot-raised the flop instead of 3x?
    On the flop, you have top two with a gutshot, an overcard, and blockers to a wrap. Plus, the third card is very low, making a set in villain's EP opening range pretty unlikely. I don't know which better hands he could have? I think you have MUBS if you don't want to get this hand in. The only argument against raising the flop is the third player left to act, IMO.
    Also, vilain is much more likely to call with worse hands on the turn than on the river.

    Lastly, I am not sure what to think about calling with this hand preflop from EP. But if you hesitate to get your money in on one of the best flops you cold ask for, I think you should fold pre.

    What is MUBS?
    In a tough game, I'm not calling an EP raiser with this hand, I just felt I would make fewer mistakes than Elliot and could possibly outplay him and/or pressure him into making an incorrect fold.
    I agree that it seems like a pretty standard ship ott, which is what I did (actually pot was slightly less than his stack, so technically he crai ott). I potted with two $100 chips (which was miscalled on the live show -- they thought I bet $100) . He called with AT78dd and hit the low straight on the river.
    I posted this hand to see what others thought about playing top 2 strong. It hasn't seemed to work out for me recently, but lol live sample size.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I think MUBS means monsters under the bed syndrome.

    I think you can bet top 2 strong esp in this case where there's no possible flush or straight yet on the board -- if you are deep and get raised, however, it's usually a fold.

    In this case, you have the best hand (if we think possible sets are unlikely as we did) and shoving creates FE equity, so shoving the turn is the the right play, just didn't get the result as happens in PLO.

    Omaha Hi Simulation ?
    40 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Jd 9c 4h 5d
    Hand Equity Wins Ties
    Ad Td 7s 8s 42.50% 17 0
    Kc jh 9d ts 57.50% 23 0
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    I agree with what folks have already said.

    I would like to add that if you're going to play this hand from early position, I think you should consider 3betting rather than calling. The main problem that this hand suffers from is post-flop playability when out of position to several players; the lack of suits greatly diminishes the number flops that you will be able to play comfortably with a significant field behind you.

    The hand plays much better in short stack situations however, which is what you will run into if you 3bet. Even if you get 4bet, you can call and then play perfectly against AAxx for the last bet. If your plan is to put pressure on the weak player to your right, why not start ASAP rather than letting better players in behind you for cheap with wide ranges? If you think that you are up against too premium a range from UTG to make this play, then folding is your best option.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    chilidog said

    What is MUBS?
    In a tough game, I'm not calling an EP raiser with this hand, I just felt I would make fewer mistakes than Elliot and could possibly outplay him and/or pressure him into making an incorrect fold.
    I agree that it seems like a pretty standard ship ott, which is what I did (actually pot was slightly less than his stack, so technically he crai ott). I potted with two $100 chips (which was miscalled on the live show -- they thought I bet $100) . He called with AT78dd and hit the low straight on the river.
    I posted this hand to see what others thought about playing top 2 strong. It hasn't seemed to work out for me recently, but lol live sample size.
    yep, MUBS = monsters under the bed

    The hand villain showed up is basically the only reasonable drawing hand he can have to call both your flop raise and your turn bet with. I think you played the hand fine postflop, and just ran into the top of his range.

    I still think, though, that preflop is the more interesting street (in terms of being a close decision). Personally, I would not call in EP with it, but I am not that experienced in PLO. However, I agree with everything OminousCow said in the previous post.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    OminousCow said
    I would like to add that if you're going to play this hand from early position, I think you should consider 3betting rather than calling. The main problem that this hand suffers from is post-flop playability when out of position to several players; the lack of suits greatly diminishes the number flops that you will be able to play comfortably with a significant field behind you.

    The hand plays much better in short stack situations however, which is what you will run into if you 3bet. Even if you get 4bet, you can call and then play perfectly against AAxx for the last bet. If your plan is to put pressure on the weak player to your right, why not start ASAP rather than letting better players in behind you for cheap with wide ranges? If you think that you are up against too premium a range from UTG to make this play, then folding is your best option.
    i'm not seeing monsters under the bed, i'm just not sure that playing top 2 for stacks is generally correct in plo.

    honestly, i don't really care how premium elliot's range is in this case (preflop premium hands are often shite after the flop), i was targeting him as probable to make post flop mistakes. and if it gets squeezed behind me, i would probably call if i was in position, and fold if the squeezer was in position. i'm not too worried about the $8 initial call. yes, there is the possibility of being free-rolled without a flush draw in my hand, but again, i was confident enough in my post flop game not to worry about that too much.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    chilidog said

    i'm not seeing monsters under the bed, i'm just not sure that playing top 2 for stacks is generally correct in plo.

    honestly, i don't really care how premium elliot's range is in this case (preflop premium hands are often shite after the flop), i was targeting him as probable to make post flop mistakes. and if it gets squeezed behind me, i would probably call if i was in position, and fold if the squeezer was in position. i'm not too worried about the $8 initial call. yes, there is the possibility of being free-rolled without a flush draw in my hand, but again, i was confident enough in my post flop game not to worry about that too much.
    There is an interesting PLO concept about preflop play, which I picked up from watching a couple of PLO videos on a training:
    "Good preflop play in PLO = creating favourable postflop situations"
    I think this is why OminousCow is trying to get at with his advice to rather 3bet. Due to the lack of suits, your hand really doesn't play great multiway, so you would prefer a lower number of opponents postflop. Morever, the eff. stacks are not deep enough were you can get away from the hand if you hit decently but might be freerolled. The fact that you are unsure about the best play on J9xr (one of the best flops) indicates that you will generally end up in very many tricky spots postflop. What are you going to do on K92hh, QT6cc, AT9dd,.... Basically every two-tone flop where you hit something puts you in a bad spot with players left behind to act.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    I agree with whatsyour play again. Great minds think alike- or close to it :) . I would never play this hand PF in bad position. You have no suits and your gap is at the top. I'd play it maybe it late position cautiously but not for a raise either. On the turn if its heads up and you only have a pot size bet left you have to put it in. If there's another person in you're probably forced to do the same but I dont like it. The more people in the more of a chance you're against a set or against a monster wrap, straight draw, flush draw scenario and you're not in good shape I believe in that case (I'd have to run the equities but I believe that's correct). Now if you're deeper I'd consider chk calling against 2 others if they are aggressive. I hate it but if you're up against a guy who will repot all in if you're deep with a monster draw ru going to call with your 2 pr? I think you got yourself in a tough spot playing a medocre hand in a raised pot oop.
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I had my reasons for playing the hand preflop as I've stated and btw, I am not out of position. I have direct position on the initial raiser which is who I was targeting in this hand. Also, if you are avoiding playing a top gap rundown in a raised pot, I think you're missing out on a lot of value cuz trust me, people are calling with (much) worse.
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