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Top 2 vs btn min raise.

MikeMike Posts: 371Member
1/3 game at a new casino (to me) eff stacks $300

folds to me in CO i open to $12 with AJ. Btn calls and bb calls 3 way flop.

Flop ($37) AJ8r.
I cb $30 and btn raises to $60. Its his first orbit at the table so no info on him. Any merrit to 3b him here?

Say i just call his raise.

Turn ($157) 6 complete badugi.

Ch/r or donk?


  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    call his flop bet and check-call the turn. I don't see what benefit 3betting the flop or check-raising the turn would have. Which weaker hand do you expect to get called by? Which better hand would fold?
    You want to keep his weaker hands in his range (he doesn't have all that many anyhow, unless he is a maniac).
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    call his flop bet and check-call the turn. I don't see what benefit 3betting the flop or check-raising the turn would have. Which weaker hand do you expect to get called by? Which better hand would fold?
    You want to keep his weaker hands in his range (he doesn't have all that many anyhow, unless he is a maniac).
    I'm confused. We have top two pair here and can expect to get lots of value from AK, AQ, A8, J8, 9T, etc. This seems like a straightforward small 3-bet and barrel off or call of raise, lead, shove. I think I sort of like call, lead, shove best since it looks the strangest and he will probably call you down with something like AT+.

    I don't think we can expect the villain to drive hard enough to play for stacks (which is what we want) so we should either 3bet flop or lead turn to set up for getting stacks in by the river.
  • coolfish7coolfish7 Posts: 29Subscriber, Professional
    As played I definitely donk the turn. C/r looks so strong unless he just bombs it and he is compelled to call with the "reverse pot odds" concept. But optimal line I think (agree with Cow, above) is to click back flop and small bet turn and river, hopefully getting it in by the river. This is one of those "Bart spots" I've learned from the podcasts/CLP where it's quite likely the min raise is an A and he's "raising for information", especially at the 1/3 level. If you don't 3b flop it's going to be tough to get all the chips in without really big-feeling (for him) bets on the later streets. And if he ends up showing you 88, so be it.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Effective stacks are 300$ at the beginning of the hand. If we call his minraise, the pot is 157$, and we have around 225$ left. How is it going to be difficult to get that in by the river, with two streets left? Even if you bet only half pot on turn, the river shove would be around 1/3 pot only.

    This is exactly why I would not 3bet the flop. I agree that it can be the best play against some villains who never fold anything, but my feeling is that against the majority of unknown players, the risk to make him either fold AQ type hands directly on the flop or scare them and make them fold on the turn is too big compared to the reward. Remember that there are not that many worse hands he can have that he will go with, and the board is not draw heavy, so it's unlikely a turn card will kill the action.

    It's possible that not only you guys but also Bart will disagree with me here (compare the KK hand on a Qxx monotone board). But my general game plan is to keep weaker hands in villain's range IF I am still able to get the stacks in by the river.
    As a side note, I feel like this allows me also to call and float more hands in general, because my flatcalling range becomes stronger overall (not sure how important this is in low stakes, though).

    If stacks were deeper, I might prefer your line of 3betting (even though I don't like it, because I wouldn't know what to do gainst a 4bet).

    Interesting spot, though. Am curious what others think about it.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Forgot to mention: I agree that leading the turn might be better than checking.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I think both clicking it back and flatting are viable, and depends most on your read of the villain.

    Since you don't have a read, I would go with what's thinking and flat the min-raise to keep my hand more disguised, and assume that the min-raise means he likely has a hand that can't stand a 3bet on the flop (e.g. a one-pair hand like AT etc.).

    I would definitely lead the turn to make sure we set up for stacks in by the river. You don't want to risk a check-behind.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Maybe I should clarify some assumptions which I made intuitively, but haven't mentioned explicitely. I would expect most players to 3bet AK preflop often (some weak players never 3bet anything other than AA, but those guys are easy to spot usually for other reasons) , and I also think most villains won't get all their money in with J8. IF those assumptions are reasonable, there really aren't that many worse hands that can stand a 3bet but will happily get their money in.
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    Is this really a spot where you think we can get 3 streets here? On the turn i sorta thought im only going to get 1 more street of value unless he improves or he already had 2p+ in which i doesnt really matter what i do the money is going in.

    If you are only going to get 1 more street of value doesnt it make more sense to check the turn to let him continue his bluffs (if he has any at all) and if it checks through just bomb river for close to pot? Kinda feel like this will keep my range way wider and he will likely call with any A.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    I agree that stacks are a little awkward here. The main reason that I advocated driving the action is that the average 1/3 player has some sort of ace here a lot and if you call and check, they will check behind and now you will have to overbet to get stacks in. You can even do something strange like lead for $40 on the turn to try to make your hand look like some sort of draw trying to see a cheap river.

    If you happen to be up against the top of the villain's range (J8+), then it doesn't matter what we do.
  • CrazyCBettorCrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    His hand is most likely AQ/AT or even weaker kind of hand. I agree a bet 3-bet seems too strong and he might fold a part of his range. But I am pretty sure not leading the turn is a big mistake. People constantly do this min raise with top pair and then check behind turn.
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    Thanks for all the responses.

    I figured that it was going to be a challenge to get 3 streets on here OOP. I figured i could either lead small on turn or go for a ch/r on the turn and if it checks through bomb the river since my hand will look kinda drawy and i think i will get called by a lot of his 1p type hands. As also stated if hes at the top of his range it doesnt really matter wtf we do since the money is gonna go in anyways on the turn.

    I called his raise (since 3b makes my hand look so strong) and ch the turn. He bet $60 which seemed weak to me but i didnt wanna let him see the river if he wasnt gonna bluff again and let him realize his equqity for free. I shoved and he snap folded. I guess he was bluffing.
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