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WSOP

ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
I am planning on going to the WSOP in June. First time for me. I am not going to enter any of the bracelet events as i am not rolled to play lottery poker for $1,000 - $1,500 an event, and I generally do not play tournaments. So, my plan is to play cash games (LSNLH) or SNGs. From those who have been there before, what advice can you provide? Is it better to play cash or SNGs? What are ranges for SNG buy ins? Is the Rio the best place to play because of the tourneys or is it like any other time you go to LV and you just play in your regular rooms?
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Comments

  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Bart has mentioned the SNGs are soft, I noticed this when I played a few but that was a number of years ago.
    Problem with Rio is that there are no automatic shufflers (slower) and the dealers are sometimes more inexperienced as they are temps. There are some more exotic games that run such as Big O and perhaps higher stakes PLO etc. I think the level of play is similar to elsewhere at that time -- mix of more serious players influx at WSOP combined with tourney players even out, and you'll find the same mix at on the strip. Overall I'm not sure its worth the trip out there unless you are going to play the SNGs/tourneys or rail friends, or check out the ambiance (you might see/play with some celebrities if you go around the main event), etc. Although if you have never been its worth going at least once to check out the Amazon room etc.

    A decent strategy may be to go to places like the Venetian/Caesers etc. that have rival lower stakes tourneys running and time it so you can play with those players when they bust out.
  • I've heard from a number of people I respect that Vegas games during the WSOP are not good and full of grinders. It actually makes sense when you think about it: all the best players come to Vegas to play during the WSOP. I stayed home last year and my local games were super soft. I wouldn't go to Vegas unless you go for the tournies or additional stuff. Vegas in general is the most overrated place for Poker, IMO. Southern California beats Vegas in basically every aspect of Poker.
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    I dont think Vegas is overrated and I am not sure So-Cal is better for poker, but I agree there will be plenty of grinders there. I suppose there will be alot of weaker players as well. I figure I would go once and see what it is all about, have some fun, and see how I do.

    I would like to hear from those who have been though to see if there opinions match what you guys are saying.
  • Overall I don't think the NL cash games are anything to write home about although I do believe they made the $2-$5 game at the Rio uncapped last year. I usually spend my time playing $75-$150 Omaha 8 or $150-$300 OE. The PLO action is insane, having at least a dozen tables of various levels.

    The one table tourneys are always super soft and they offer a wide variety of buy in levels ranging from $175s-$1030s. The rake is incredibly low (as they assume that you will use the lamers to buy-in to normal, high raked tournaments although you can sell them at face value easily) and with the ability to do unvigged last-longers is probably the best deal in town. They started doing deep stacked dailys last year which I heard were incredibly soft. Like $300 buy in tourneys drawing over 1000 people.

    Bart
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I heard the Big O games were the best for potential profit if you're playing cash instead of tournaments.

    If only I weren't such a donk in Big O in understanding hand values. That's why I'll he playing tournaments

    The Rio daily tournaments are probably the best value for low stakes. Lots of dead money in the field althoughbrhe structures aren't very good
  • coolfish7coolfish7 Posts: 29Subscriber, Professional
    Claire said

    The Rio daily tournaments are probably the best value for low stakes. Lots of dead money in the field althoughbrhe structures aren't very good
    One thing you can do is listen to one of last year's DPP podcasts, I think the Jonathan Little #1, talked a lot about the MTTs/SNGs/big field WSOP events and the equity in them. The Matt Affleck DPP a few weeks later may also have touched on this topic.

    For my part, I think I played ~30 of the daily $200+35 2 pm events at the Rio last year. And while I can attest that they are amazing value because the fields are large (1000+) and filled with absolute fish, I think you're still losing money playing them if you're beating $2-5 cash or higher, from an avg hourly rate standpoint (I came to this realization AFTER wasting my summer grinding them, obviously). The structure is so poor after a few hours that your variance is insane despite the fact that very few people deep in the tourney understand 10-20BB play. Additionally, when the money starts to get significant (say $1k+), the average stack is something like 13BB, so it's a total crapshoot. Keep in mind too that they're re-entry for the first 2 hrs (4 levels) so play early on is also total insanity. Of course my buddy only played 5 of them and chopped 13 ways for better than 2nd place money ($32k!) so clearly I'm a donk Wink

    I think the same logic about time value holds true for the STTs, but mainly because there's quite a lag while waiting for the higher buy-in ones (ones where your avg hourly might be comparable to say, $2-5 cash) to populate. Ranges for SNGs are (were last year) $125, $175, $225, $275, $375, $525, and $10XX. All had the same dollar value vig (which as you moved up in stakes, were as a percentage less), because the SNGs payed out multiples of $500 lammers (to use to buy into bigger events or to sell to others seeking to play said events), and $120 cash. The art of the chop deal also comes into play 2 and 3 handed. All SNGs are nominally winner-take-all, but you can often make deals with your opponents, especially using the $120 cash as leverage. For example, your opponent may have you outchipped 55%/45% but is willing to take an even chop for the whole prize pool. Those deal-edges definitely add up, so be sure you're up on your quick ICM calcs if you want to play them.

    Last year I thought the cash games would be bad due to the economy and the "vacuum" effect discussed by Bart and others, where the best players in the local rooms travel to Vegas. However, I was pleasantly surprised to see the games pretty soft overall (though game selection still matters), even at Rio (2/5 and 5/10), and especially at Venetian 2/5 (where they also comped $2/hr all summer - it adds up in terms of paying for your meals). I'd avoid Aria, despite the same $2/hr comp rate, because Aria seems to be where the best Vegas grinders live (prestige of playing in the best new big room?).

    Hope this helps,
    Matt
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    The first time I ever played live was one of the Rio daily deepstacks in 2011
    I made idiotic newb mistakes, like not understanding the oversize chip rule. I was even a little tilted when I saw 6 limpers per hand and was wondering what was going on. Lol clueless about live poker
    With all that being said, I still thought I was one of the best players at any table I got, and I still almost cashed. That's saying a lot about the level of the field for someone who had never played live. Eventually shoved about 16BB with AQ over a raise and ran into AK.

    I still think that if you're primarily a cash player, you're better off not going to Las Vegas at all in the summer. Last summer I would wander around aimlessly for 2-3 hours while waiting for a 2/5 seat when they were overcrowded. Then, when I finally got a seat, it would be at a table with 5 grinders, 2 ok recreational players, and only one fish. If you're only going to play cash, save yourself the trouble of traveling, and you'll probably win more at your home casino.
  • ^ Exactly. I have heard good things about the SNGs in particular, and that is about it. One regular around here said people were absolutely clueless regarding SNG strategy and he at one point claimed cashing in 10/14.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I didnt play any NL last year but the mix games were great. I made alot playing 10/20 o8. I also played one sng and I can confirm how awful the play was. I chopped for first in one with the last longer on a $175 buy in tourney. good negotiation in the chop was key. heads up I told the guy to accept my offer or we play it out. i did have the chip lead but not a huge lead. he gladly accepted. .

    I also played two of the 2 pm tourney and the structure was so fast I dont think there are very good ev. the deepstack at venetian will be better. I think the cash games will be better there too


    the cash games on the weekends at the rio are fine. sat esp as the players bust the 1ks. during the week the nl games will be alot tougher. ALOT. so if I go I will play o8 again and stay away from nl

    ww
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Does anybody know which time of the year would be better to play cash games in Vegas?
    Is there a time which is especially popular for tourists but less attractive for grinders?
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I have a friend who plays $5/10 NLHE and sometimes higher, he plans his vegas trips around the Venetian Deep Stack tournaments (they have the series several times a year) and thinks the games are better around tournament time.

    Also, I would imagine around sporting events e.g. March Madness, Super Bowl, and national holidays would pull in the most outright tourists. But flights and hotel cost most around those times as well.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Hey Wendy,
    What resources can I go to for a crash course on O8?
    I've played a little 7.5/15 or 10/20 in mixes, but I could still tell I didn't know what I was doing. I need a new game for downtime from bracelet events this summer because I'm planning to be there for a pretty long time.

    2011: 1 long weekend
    2012: 10 days
    2013: At least 6 weeks?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    Hey Wendy,
    What resources can I go to for a crash course on O8?
    I've played a little 7.5/15 or 10/20 in mixes, but I could still tell I didn't know what I was doing. I need a new game for downtime from bracelet events this summer because I'm planning to be there for a pretty long time.

    2011: 1 long weekend
    2012: 10 days
    2013: At least 6 weeks?
    There are a couple of books you can get on amamzon.. The basics are have the best low and freeroll to the high.. Also Bart talks about this website where the writer rates the value of omaha hands as a point value. This is very helpful as well. Trick is deciding which hands to limp, which hands to raise for value, which hands raise to iso,... then the rest of the hand itself tends to play out once the flop hits..

    Also normal limit play comes in, like check raising to trap overcallers, when the bet draws, bluffing etc... that you can only really pick up by experience..

    I would definitely play o8 or EO during the weeks at the wsop and they will have 10/20 & 20/40. the 20/40 game was alot tougher and more aggressive.. That said alot of player still were player omaha high.. This can easily be overcome by playing against those players in pos and when you have a low and freerolling to a high you can absolutely kill those players scooping big pots..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Where's that website with the point values?

    I think I read a couple O8 books when I was first trying to learn, but decision still feels unnatural, and I'm never 100% certain what I'm supposed to be doing with anything. On the other hand, in NLH, decisions and hand reading feel like a great part of them are based on instinct. I might try to practice a little online if I can find a game.

    As for Big O, which is the supposed to be the best at the series and I really wanted to learn how to play, there are literally zero resources and zero ways to play online in the US.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    Where's that website with the point values?

    I think I read a couple O8 books when I was first trying to learn, but decision still feels unnatural, and I'm never 100% certain what I'm supposed to be doing with anything. On the other hand, in NLH, decisions and hand reading feel like a great part of them are based on instinct. I might try to practice a little online if I can find a game.

    As for Big O, which is the supposed to be the best at the series and I really wanted to learn how to play, there are literally zero resources and zero ways to play online in the US.
    Don't play Big O until you have played some hours with O8. 5 cards means you really have to have a two way hand and if you are a bit unsure of things I would try it maybe at the end of your series.. You should have a good understanding of what hands to play and how before you even try PLO8 5 carded!

    http://erh.homestead.com/omaha.html

    The higher the point the better the hand..
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Thanks ^_^
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Claire
    I dont know what level of O8 you will play, but if you play anything below 10/20, expect multiway flops and turns. In my experience, your goal is to scoop the pot and draw to the nut flush or better. Your starting hands have to work together, and stay away from middling cards 8,9, 10s. Flushes rule. Do not overplay straights, in fact some experts tell you to fold straights unless it the nut high straight.
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    All the talk about the WSOP being bad for cash games is discouraging me from going. I guess if I do I will spend my time at the Venetian and maybe rail the Rio.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Brudre21 said

    Claire
    I dont know what level of O8 you will play, but if you play anything below 10/20, expect multiway flops and turns. In my experience, your goal is to scoop the pot and draw to the nut flush or better. Your starting hands have to work together, and stay away from middling cards 8,9, 10s. Flushes rule. Do not overplay straights, in fact some experts tell you to fold straights unless it the nut high straight.
    Good advice on straights not the nuts unless its the nut low.. then call..You can play hands with 9s and 10s but they should all be straightning cards .. You dont want to play two way hands with middling cards .. like A478 or A945.. these will just get you into real trouble..

    Players in O8 will play almost every hand and its not the point to win the most pots. the point is the win BIG pots and those are scoops and high only hands..Anyone who would like to sweat me in the 10/20 is more than welcome. I am sure I am not as good as bart but one night I won 1000.. game is really juicy as players dont fold the flop even only with a non nut backdoor low..

    ww
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Oh.. forgot to mention that if you want to test things there is a 8/16 O8 game at the venetian that goes every day. the play is not as bad as the 10/20 will be at the wsop so it would be a great way to get some experience before then. When I was in vegas last time there was one guy playing uber aggressive with crap middling hands pre.. Gotta luv these young guns who think they can play limit omaha high in a O8 game..Cool

    ww
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