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River decision

CrazyCBettorCrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
2/3/5 Deep stack [We have a blind on the button] game at local casino (500-1500 buy in)

History: The villain was a russian kid who likes to bluff and show them (thought he is not crazy picks his spots carefully). In a previous hand he called my raise after liming. Led out on a 346 flop, and then check raised me on a Q turn. I snap folded and told him I had aces. He told me he had 57 and was upset I folded. I believe him as he really loves to show his bluffs. The villain considers me a decent player.

Actual hand: (Villain has around 1500 and I have him covered)
I raise to 25 after the villain limps and a blind and the villain calls.
Pot: 80
Flop: AsKsQc
I bet 60 and both players call.
Pot: 260
Turn: 5c
The villain leads out for 200 and I call and the other player folds. (I think this is a mistake. I should have raised. There are a lot of combo draws that I get value from.)
Pot: 660
River: 2c
The villain bets 600.

What is my play here?

Comments

  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    and what are hero's cards ? it might affect the action on the river.
  • CrazyCBettorCrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Oh sorry, I have AKo.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    chilidog said

    and what are hero's cards ? it might affect the action on the river.
    LaughWinkLaugh
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am not sure if I agree with you that raising the turn is better than calling. Do you think villain leads with a draw into two people? To me, his line rather looks like he tries to get value. Wouldn't he go for a check-raise with a draw to create old equity? When you call the turn, he should know that you have lots of top pair hands in your range.. Do you think he would try to bluff you off AT, AJ type hands?

    Plausible hands in his limp-calling range that beat you are KcJc or KcTc, JT obv, and all AcXc combos (you don't have the Ac, do you?).
    He might also play AQ or maaaybe A5 this way, but the river bet is so huge that I doubt it. It looks more like AcXc to me.

    I think he really has to bluff a LOT to make this a call. You said he picks his spots wisely. I that's the case, I advocate folding. Guess he ran into a flush on the river.
  • Crazy,

    Raising the turn really depends on what type of player you think he is. A lot of guys are just not capable of folding AQ, KQ or A5 to a raise so it can never be bad to build a pot up against those hands. With that being said it is a disaster if you raise the turn and get two pair to fold out. In a vacuum no one has any of these holdings when they bomb pot at $5-5. If you were playing against someone like me I could have A5 but probably wouldnt bet so large at the end. This is looking a lot like some sort of weird backdoor flush although in practice it is very tough for me to make big lay downs at these lower levels. I've just seen a lot of weird shit do down at $5-$5.

    Bart
  • CrazyCBettorCrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Hey Bart,
    I completely agree with you that if I raise the turn it is very difficult to get value from any worse 2 pair other than maybe AQ. I did not think about that, what I was mostly thinking about was getting values from combo draws. This tradeoff always will exist right bart? If I do not raise I am not charging the draws, if I raise I am letting worse 2 pair fold out. Not sure which is better. During the hand I had a very strong suspicion that the 5c helped him and the most likely way it could have helped him is if he had AcXc. And them when the club came and he bet almost the pot I was disgusted. I was getting 2-1 and I had to be right 33% of the time and its just the fact that people just do not bluff so much. I checked my hand and I did not have the Ace of clubs and so I pitched it. He then showed 5s6s. So the turn gave him a pair with the frontdoor flush draw. One thing to note is he was a semi-decent player and I was pretty sure he was not doing it with AQ/KQ/A5 for value. When there is AK on the board I think even bad players do not overplay 2 pair. By the way for some players you are right bart, one of the guys was so bad that he check raised all in over by $1200 bet with a flush on the board with a set of queens, I had the nut flush and I am not sure what I would have done with a smaller flush.

    Hey Whatsyourplay,
    I do not really agree that he would necessarily check raise the turn with a combo draw (everyone does not listen to bart :D ). And yes I agree with you that he would not bet any 2 pair that huge. And you are absolutely right I had a very strong feeling he had the AcXc and that he has to bluff like 1/3rd of the time to make this profitable so I thought it was a decent fold.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    The main thing here is he's a big bluffer. If thats the case AND he makes a big bet on the river I call. Big bluffers bluff big and save their smaller bets for value bets I think most of the time. On benefit of raising the turn is getting a read on him when he calls your raise of course when the draw comes in it may make things that much tougher since you may read him as on a draw on the turn than the draw completes (However not the draw he was on). However just calling has merits since he could have a worse 2 pr hmmm. Interesting him donking into you on the turn. If he had J10 I would think hed chk raise maybe? But if he had J10 with 2 others in a hand it seems like he would raise the flop and not just call since theres a flush draw out there. Also he's calling your raise on the turn with 2 pr I'm sure. Most players wont fold 2 pr like A5 on the turn nor draws for that matter either. Most players wont fold top pr most of the time, let alone 2 pr. It seems like bluffers tend to be more call happy too imo than tight people. Raise the turn and call a river bet if hes a bluffer capable of betting a busted draw. I've folded in your spot before on the river but against a known bluffer I'll call a big bet because they bet the river because "if they didn't they wouldn't win the pot". Thats what the last guy that bluffed me out oop when he missed the draw said to me. I'm glad he showed. I just try to remember the guy in my memory banks so next time I know to call.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    CrazyCBettor said

    Hey Whatsyourplay,
    I do not really agree that he would necessarily check raise the turn with a combo draw (everyone does not listen to bart :D ). And yes I agree with you that he would not bet any 2 pair that huge. And you are absolutely right I had a very strong feeling he had the AcXc and that he has to bluff like 1/3rd of the time to make this profitable so I thought it was a decent fold.
    Good point, we don't know how he plays a combo draw, I agree.
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