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Button Spot 2/5 No Limit

regfishregfish Posts: 34Member
Was losing a bunch at another table so I table changed to this one but I don't think anyone in this game knows i'm stuck a ton. Tbh my logic and play at this point are prob. somewhat affected from losing but not to the point of me playing terrible.

So in the first 2 or 3 orbits I raise a bunch of hands and mostly take them down pre or with a relatively standard cbet. Except for 1 hand in which I raise 78dd in ep and get 2 callers both ip. Flop is 783r 1 d and I bet 2/3 pot. Villain calls other player folds. Turn is t completing the badugi and I bet 2/3 pot and villains thinks for awhile, gives me a hard stare down and finally folds. Also I saw this villain open k9s in mp a few hands after this hand, get 1 caller, and bet 2 streets on a k high board (k only broadway card) and check back riv. when backdoor flush comes in and he was good. I've seen this dude around once in awhile but not all the time so hes a semi reg. you could say. He's white and in prob. late 30's. Besides these hands I have no other reads.

So 4 people limp and I raise to 35 with xx. Villain is in bb and he thinks for a bit and makes it 105. Folds to me, stacks are 500 effective. What hands would you fold, call, 4bet small with (ie click it back or 4bet smallish) or 4bet jam with. Obv. take into account provided history. Please give your logic for each range. Thanks SOP.

Comments

  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Since this is the first 3vet from him you see, you have no idea about his 3betting range at his moment. For this reason, I'd react very carefully for now, unil you have a reason to believe that he 3bets really light. People tend to make the mistake that after seeing a few aggressive moves from a guy to assume that he's vy aggro, but often people just catch a couple of strong hands in a very short time.

    That being said, you'd have to call 70 with eff. stacks of 500, which means you can't call with small/medium pocket pairs.
    Also, with villain havin üg 20% of his stack already in the pot, there's no real difference between 4berting small and shoving. The purpose of a small 4bet is to either be able to 4bet/fold as a bluff or give villain the illusion that he has fold equity. A small 4bet here would be to around 220, which is 45% of your stack. You can't fold anymore then.

    Therefore, I only see the choice between pushing and flatting with really strong hands, and folding everything else.
    So, personally I'd push AK, QQ-KK and maybe JJ, and often flat with AA for deception and to underrep my hand (or also push, depending on the dynamic).
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    Since this is the first 3vet from him you see, you have no idea about his 3betting range at his moment. For this reason, I'd react very carefully for now, unil you have a reason to believe that he 3bets really light. People tend to make the mistake that after seeing a few aggressive moves from a guy to assume that he's vy aggro, but often people just catch a couple of strong hands in a very short time.

    That being said, you'd have to call 70 with eff. stacks of 500, which means you can't call with small/medium pocket pairs.
    Also, with villain havin üg 20% of his stack already in the pot, there's no real difference between 4berting small and shoving. The purpose of a small 4bet is to either be able to 4bet/fold as a bluff or give villain the illusion that he has fold equity. A small 4bet here would be to around 220, which is 45% of your stack. You can't fold anymore then.

    Therefore, I only see the choice between pushing and flatting with really strong hands, and folding everything else.
    So, personally I'd push AK, QQ-KK and maybe JJ, and often flat with AA for deception and to underrep my hand (or also push, depending on the dynamic).
    I concur with everything said here.. I would flat most of the time heads up with AA just because I have a tighter image and I get villains to value own themselves alot that would fold to 4 be shoves.. Depending on my reads I might even fold JJ or QQs.. If the player is on the tighter side then his 3 bet range is QQ+ and AK QQ dont do well against that range just as AK doesnt do well either.

    Given the stacks you cant call with anything you wouldnt shove with.

    Wendy
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Also, I think your reads don't really change your decision in this spot.
    Let's assume villain noticed that you raised frequently and have been quite aggressive post. Even then, it doesn't necessarily mean he will adjust by being more aggressive vs. you. Most people rather adjust by calling down lighter. So, he might theoretically call a shove lighter then usual, but if his 3bet range is really strong in the first place (we don't know, but without reads I'd assume that), he doesn't have hands in his range anymore which he could call down lighter with.

    Hope that makes sense, even though it could certainly be phrased much better.
  • LarryLidoLarryLido Posts: 52Member
    I think the OP will get better answers if he just tells us his cards. Asking this forum to evaluate the proper response to his entire raising range (starting at 78s) is a monumental task.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    So much of this is situational and read dependent. There is no one right answer.

    If you are clueless to what his three bet range is then I would play this very conservatively and shove KK and AA (could also flat) and fold everything else.
  • AdamGabbertAdamGabbert Posts: 12Subscriber
    I love this position - when the villain thinks your running over the table and he's going to "teach you a lesson". In this situation with AA, KK, AK I always flat in position. He will 100% bet the flop, feeling he has to keep his man hood. With a few false physical tells and a reraise he will end up calling 75% of the time and be pot committed with his weaker holding. this comes up with me every few sessions and is very profitable against older regs that think they are good players.
  • Just as a side note, when a little bet deeper you can flat with AK and shove an undercard flop as a semibluff. You can also 3 or 4 bet from OOP and check raise AK as a semibluff as well. I do not mind flatting here with JJ, TT and even 99 if you feel comfortable with your capped game. There are a lot of shitty flops however and I wouldnt recommend this play to beginners. However, it is so unlikely that a guy is going to dbl barrel off his stack once you call a flop bet. A lot of times facing one overcard you can just get it to showdown and win. I sometimes get stubborn with AQss as a flat in this spot-- but again, even with position the shallow depth of the hand will get you into some real tricky situations.

    Bart
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Bart said

    I do not mind flatting here with JJ, TT and even 99 if you feel comfortable with your capped game. There are a lot of shitty flops however and I wouldnt recommend this play to beginners. .

    Bart
    Bart, wouldn't such a play require more reads about villains postflop play in order to make it profitable in the long run?
  • Yes, that would make it easier. But when i get into these types of situations vs unknowns I just draw upon my live experience and usually stereotype the player via whatever information I have available. Not perfect, but better than nothing.

    Bart
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    It depends on who the villain is. If it's an unknown and straightforward-looking player, I would fold all non-premiums.

    If it's an old guy or woman, I'm folding everything but AA or KK

    If it's a player who is somewhat thinking with a value range of something like JJ+/AK, I would 4-bet small with QQ or AK and hope they fold something that's a coin flip my hand because they think I'm clicking it back with AA or KK.
    With AA or KK, I'm all in because I want to make it look like I have AK.

    Sometimes I can feel it when I'm getting 3-bet light. There was a time a couple days ago when I raised in a similar situation, got 3-bet by a guy who looked like a tournament player and seemed reasonably competent but little aggro from the few hands I saw him play, so I clicked back with JTs and he snap folded. Of course 4-betting unknowns is generally -EV, so pick your opponent carefully.
  • regfishregfish Posts: 34Member
    Thanks for all the replies. Btw I got dealt aks in this spot. Normally with no dynamics and no evidence that villain is capable of light 3bets I just muck. Nitty as it may seem it's just my experience that "they always have it". In this spot though with the limited history we had I thought villain would have enough bluffs/possibly lesser value hands (ie aq) to make continuing profitable . I'm def. not afraid of postflop action but in the heat of the moment I thought that if villain was good enough to have a 3bet bluff range (lots of people don't in this player pool) he would, at minimum, not play terribly post flop. This coupled with the fact that the pot was so bloated because of the limpers (it makes the raise and 3bet bigger) I decided to jam and not call and play guesswork on so many flops with such a small spr. I did seriously consider clicking it back, but I wasn't sure what that would accomplish with me holding ak. In the end he wound up have 2 kings and I lost. I can at least make mental note of this and not give this player this type of action in the future if I see him. At least until I see some evidence of him getting more out of line (showdowns). Something that i'm kind of thinking about now though could sway this to a fold though. I have so little variance when playing 2/5 that it might not even be worth taking a spot this close.
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