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KK PF stack size considerations vs. unknown?

shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
$5/10 NLHE. Bought in for $1500, and have not completed an orbit yet, table full of unknowns. Lots of action with at the table so far with LAGgy player two to my right with large stack driving action, largely winning pots getting folds.

UTG+1 open limps for $10. I raise to $50 with KcKs (my first pot played, so I probably have no image at the table). 7 calls around to BB, who raises to $250 (he has me well covered). He is a well-dressed younger man in the 20s. I think this is a pretty obvious squeeze spot for him, and given the table action I've seen so far, I think his range could be wide. UTG folds. I raise to $750. Folds back to BB who shoves -- additional $750 to call.

Questions for discussion:
When he reraises to $250, would you consider calling instead given I will have position PF with a perhaps disguised hand? Is raising to $750 just turning my hand face-up? Is there a stack-size depth where you would almost always call with this hand vs. 4-betting?

As played, would you consider folding at these stakes and at 150 BB to an unknown?

I know it may sound silly on the surface as we have the 2nd best starting hand, need to call $750 to win $2700 (need to be good ~22% of the time). But the 5 bet shove is very polarizing. Also, the fact that you have KK has large card removal impact on his range. If his range is narrowed to QQ, AK, KK, AA, there are now only 8 combinations of AK and 1 tying KK combo, to go with 6 AAs and 6 QQs. I'm not sure though that an unknown is shoving 150BB at these stakes with AK and QQ. In your experience is at $5/10, does a 5bet preflop by an unknown mean that his range should be polarized to really the 6 combos of AAs and the 1 KK? If I'm only against AAs in this situation then we are actually not getting the odds to call (17-18% equity).

At what stack depth would you fold KKs in this spot?

Thanks in advance, appreciate any thoughts.


  • ShawnCrichleyShawnCrichley Posts: 11Member
    I do not think you should fold here given these odds. The fact that there are so many callers increases the likely hood of some aces being out in the field. It's just too big a pot to fold kings here I think.

    I'd 4-bet smaller pre to say $600 and maybe I could fold to a shove then. I'm not sure there's any reason to risk the extra $150.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    against a tight player I am willing to flat and just check raise all in if oop or raise all in in pos against cbet. if you were deeper and you KNOW villain has no 4 bet shive range then I really like the min reraise back. then if villain goes all in you can fold.

    Gven you dont know anyone at the table and you have 150 bb and his raise is so big I just cant see how you dont call off. after his 250 reraise you only have I think 5x that raise left. after your call you will have basically 1spr if I didnt add wrong left. and with that I just dont think you can fold.

  • I think once you 4bet you can't fold, and that you probably made the right play. I would probably 4bet less and still call off. Flatting his 3bet seems bad given if I am reading correctly, there are 5 people in front of you still to act? Hand is pretty gross, especially since he made a small squeeze size raise, I mean $250 after 7 calls of $50 is small and looks like Aces. Oh, well.
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Thanks all. I like the comments on the bet-sizing. As you guessed he had AA and I bricked out (the flop was lower cards and probably wouldn't have prevented an AI on the flop). Anyway, I wasn't trying to make this a thinly veiled cooler story -- the hand made me think seriously about this card-removal phenomenon with KKs -- unless your opponent 5 bets light it removes many of the hand combos that they would be 5-betting with. There are some players out there that would do this with QQ, but I definitely know many that would have AA 100% of the time in this spot. Another takeaway: it was relatively easy decision at the time because of my perception that that the whole table was loose and actiony -- however as time went on I realized that it was really the one person 2 to my left, and once he left the table became pretty nitty -- so its important not to generalize table perception to each individual player.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    A lot of good points here. I also have the leak of playing back in spots that are obvious squeezes early in a session only to later realize I shouldn't. Tough pill to swallow but that's the state of games right now. I could prob get away from this spot at 200bb's.
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    You dont have to do much to his range to get your equity where you need it to be +ev. If hes shoving with AA/KK and 1 combo of QQ you are 30%. the equity in the hand is more than just what hands get turned up when shoved on and you call. Think of all the times you 4b and everyone folds and you scoop $600. If villain is ONLY shoving AA in this spot it is going to be +ev to just ship your entire range.
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