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Crush Live Poker Video No.239: Typical 5-5 Mistakes At Stones

CLP_CraigCLP_Craig Posts: 790Administrator
This month, Tuck returns to his bread and butter and dissects a 5-5 deep-stacked game to reveal typical mistakes made in this game and ways to exploit them.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/videos/typical-5-5-mistakes-at-stones

Episode Posts at 11 AM PST.
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Comments

  • hobehobe Posts: 209Subscriber
    Sorry if this is wron spot to post about the video, but on hand one do we really expect a "pro" to be betting 99 on this board ? Or even j9? Seems to me like only two combos of A9s should be what he is repping don't you think ? @davidtuchman?
  • PBJTIMEPBJTIME Posts: 346Subscriber
    I think a good player may check KK or QQ but any pair lower than Js and most non paired hands should bet this flop as a bluff.
    Thanked by 1MasonIsAClown
  • irwinbetirwinbet Posts: 408Subscriber
    Another good video by Tuchman. I had a question on hand #5 "overplay w/ TT" which starts at the 45 minute mark. The pot is opened by "Cobra" in MP, who has been very active. Player in the CO calls, player in SB calls w/ TT & the BB calls. Flop is 8 5 :s: 2 & gets checked to the preflop raiser who C-bets $60 into the $80 pot. CO calls & the SB then check raises to $220 w/ $680 behind.
    You state that you don't like check-raising this hand & want to keep the pot as small as possible. I was wondering why you felt it would be better to check call as opposed to check raise? I think given the way Cobra has been playing we can definitely have a better hand than him & can also be ahead of the CO as well. There are also many cards that can come on the turn that either beat us or will keep worse hands from continuing if we are still best. For these reasons I think it would be better to build the pot now. Could you please explain your thought process on this one? Thanks.
  • MasonIsAClownMasonIsAClown Posts: 102Subscriber, Professional
    PBJTIME wrote: »
    I think a good player may check KK or QQ but any pair lower than Js and most non paired hands should bet this flop as a bluff.

    Yes I agree. Not just as a bluff but as protection from getting bluffed or having to call down in weird spots.
  • t_royt_roy Posts: 84Subscriber
    Hand 1

    I think you need to keep basically all value hands in Cobra's turn check back range. Given that there are no draws and Azzaan has a weak range due to the limp call, I think a check back would be the best play. You're much more likely to get flop and river value against a weak ace or a jack than flop and turn value imo.

    On top of this, there should be a tendency to get to the river in a "bluff pot" game with value hands, because you will automatically get a higher bluffing frequency in your perceived range based on the rule set. As such, I think the river lead by azaan is pretty terrible. It also pushes me towards a fold when raised. It really depends on how wide we think cobra is pre, but given the positions, I think he has more value in his range than air.
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    hobe wrote: »
    Sorry if this is wron spot to post about the video, but on hand one do we really expect a "pro" to be betting 99 on this board ? Or even j9? Seems to me like only two combos of A9s should be what he is repping don't you think ? @davidtuchman?

    keep in mind, just because a player defines himself as a pro, that doesn't mean he knows what he or she is doing. I know many amateurs that are far better than "pros" ... In addition, we need to always remember that other poker players don't necessarily think about poker like we do...my guess is our villain in this hand could be auto-betting any two on this flop ... (just trying to rep the ace or not really not knowing why he's betting)

    That said, we'd expect a good player to occasionally (def not always) check back J9, maybe baby aces? ... I'd be more inclined to bet 99 simply because I don't want to give free equity to over cards AND I might be able to set up a multi-street bluff and get a hand like JT to fold.

    Thanks for input ...

    Tuck
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    PBJTIME wrote: »
    I think a good player may check KK or QQ but any pair lower than Js and most non paired hands should bet this flop as a bluff.

    I can definitely see this. Checking back KK is pretty good IMO ... but I agree, I'm betting most non-paired hands and almost all pairs lower than J's on this flop. Keep in mind, it's not necessarily a bluff though. You can easily bet 22-TT against certain villains simply to protect your equity in the pot. If your opponent isn't going to bluff, why give something like KT,QT or even 78 free equity? ,
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    irwinbet wrote: »
    Another good video by Tuchman. I had a question on hand #5 "overplay w/ TT" which starts at the 45 minute mark. The pot is opened by "Cobra" in MP, who has been very active. Player in the CO calls, player in SB calls w/ TT & the BB calls. Flop is 8 5 :s: 2 & gets checked to the preflop raiser who C-bets $60 into the $80 pot. CO calls & the SB then check raises to $220 w/ $680 behind.
    You state that you don't like check-raising this hand & want to keep the pot as small as possible. I was wondering why you felt it would be better to check call as opposed to check raise? I think given the way Cobra has been playing we can definitely have a better hand than him & can also be ahead of the CO as well. There are also many cards that can come on the turn that either beat us or will keep worse hands from continuing if we are still best. For these reasons I think it would be better to build the pot now. Could you please explain your thought process on this one? Thanks.

    first off, thanks!

    Since Cobra is opening so often, I really would've liked to see a 3bet from the SB with TT ....

    post-flop, the hand is much trickier simply because I'm not sure we can get many worse hands to call our Check-raise. While Cobra is opening wide, it doesn't mean he's got nothing postflop. Keep in mind, he bet into 3 opponents and often wouldn't bet when he completely missed earlier. The fact, he had nothing here is results oriented. The tight guy on Cobra's left flatted his flop bet. What does he have?

    This isn't always the case, but I feel when we CR TT on this board against a better and a caller, we're getting most of the hands we beat to fold and nothing that beats us folds. That's not smart poker...

    He compounds that error, by calling the shove after he's Check-raised...

    TT can be a tough hand to play out of position against multiple players. It's one of the reasons (among many) why I think he should be 3-betting pre.

    As a general rule...(very general), when you get 135 BBs in post flop with just one pair of Tens, you aren't often in great shape.
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    PBJTIME wrote: »
    I think a good player may check KK or QQ but any pair lower than Js and most non paired hands should bet this flop as a bluff.

    Yes I agree. Not just as a bluff but as protection from getting bluffed or having to call down in weird spots.

    Personally, not a fan of betting "to protect against getting bluffed" ... I want to induce bluffs, force my opponents to make mistakes, etc...

    Is it sometimes hard to call down, Yes. I know this. That said, I'm much more likely to bet to protect my equity in the pot when I DON'T think my opponent will bluff.

  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    t_roy wrote: »
    Hand 1

    I think you need to keep basically all value hands in Cobra's turn check back range. Given that there are no draws and Azzaan has a weak range due to the limp call, I think a check back would be the best play. You're much more likely to get flop and river value against a weak ace or a jack than flop and turn value imo.

    On top of this, there should be a tendency to get to the river in a "bluff pot" game with value hands, because you will automatically get a higher bluffing frequency in your perceived range based on the rule set. As such, I think the river lead by azaan is pretty terrible. It also pushes me towards a fold when raised. It really depends on how wide we think cobra is pre, but given the positions, I think he has more value in his range than air.

    these are really good points. I don't often think a player will check back all their value hands when we're over 200 BBs deep. I'd imagine my opponent would want to build the pot, but the bluff pot dynamic could change the way our villain thinks.

    Nice post!

    Thanks
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    PBJTIME wrote: »
    I think a good player may check KK or QQ but any pair lower than Js and most non paired hands should bet this flop as a bluff.

    Yes I agree. Not just as a bluff but as protection from getting bluffed or having to call down in weird spots.

    btw, LOVE your name.
  • t_royt_roy Posts: 84Subscriber
    t_roy wrote: »
    Hand 1

    I think you need to keep basically all value hands in Cobra's turn check back range. Given that there are no draws and Azzaan has a weak range due to the limp call, I think a check back would be the best play. You're much more likely to get flop and river value against a weak ace or a jack than flop and turn value imo.

    On top of this, there should be a tendency to get to the river in a "bluff pot" game with value hands, because you will automatically get a higher bluffing frequency in your perceived range based on the rule set. As such, I think the river lead by azaan is pretty terrible. It also pushes me towards a fold when raised. It really depends on how wide we think cobra is pre, but given the positions, I think he has more value in his range than air.

    these are really good points. I don't often think a player will check back all their value hands when we're over 200 BBs deep. I'd imagine my opponent would want to build the pot, but the bluff pot dynamic could change the way our villain thinks.

    Nice post!

    Thanks

    Thanks.

    I think that's a correct assessment in general, but when you look at this particular spot, the question becomes build a pot against what? The limp call means Azzaan is probably only giving a lot of action with A5s, and 55, both of which will likely put in an extra bet on the river anyway. I may be going too many levels deep, but all I really know is that they are both pros. If I'm cobra I'm checking back my whole value range. It's pretty history dependent if you are in Azaan's spot though.
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    t_roy wrote: »
    t_roy wrote: »
    Hand 1

    I think you need to keep basically all value hands in Cobra's turn check back range. Given that there are no draws and Azzaan has a weak range due to the limp call, I think a check back would be the best play. You're much more likely to get flop and river value against a weak ace or a jack than flop and turn value imo.

    On top of this, there should be a tendency to get to the river in a "bluff pot" game with value hands, because you will automatically get a higher bluffing frequency in your perceived range based on the rule set. As such, I think the river lead by azaan is pretty terrible. It also pushes me towards a fold when raised. It really depends on how wide we think cobra is pre, but given the positions, I think he has more value in his range than air.

    these are really good points. I don't often think a player will check back all their value hands when we're over 200 BBs deep. I'd imagine my opponent would want to build the pot, but the bluff pot dynamic could change the way our villain thinks.

    Nice post!

    Thanks

    Thanks.

    I think that's a correct assessment in general, but when you look at this particular spot, the question becomes build a pot against what? The limp call means Azzaan is probably only giving a lot of action with A5s, and 55, both of which will likely put in an extra bet on the river anyway. I may be going too many levels deep, but all I really know is that they are both pros. If I'm cobra I'm checking back my whole value range. It's pretty history dependent if you are in Azaan's spot though.

    you might be, but I think that would be a mistake against "most" 5-5 players. Keep in mind, it wasn't a limp call. The KJ hand was in the straddle. He just called which doesn't tell us much about his hand. I know a lot of players who don't ever 3-bet in heads-up pots out of the BB or straddle

    Again, when a player defines themselves as a "pro" ... I don't read too much into it.

    With the bluff pot dynamic, I can understand checking back to "level" your opponent into making a big hero call on the river, but in other circumstances, I'm betting against typical 5-5 players because of the following"

    1. At 5-5 and even higher, I want to allow my opponents to make mistakes. More mistakes are made and they tend to bigger mistakes when the pot gets bigger. We're over 200 BBs deep, I want to start building a pot if I have a value hand.

    2 . I'm not sure why we're suggesting our opponent in the straddle can't have AJ, AT, AQ or A5...All of which might be strong enough to get 3 streets of value from depending on our image. I think you might be giving your 5-5 opponents too much credit if you think they are always going to fold Ax to a double barrel - most players are Call down monkeys

    3. Turn brought back door clubs ... If we bet the turn, we might be able to induce a bluff from QTcc, KQcc or 5xcc

    and lastly... (although there are probably more reasons for betting)

    4. Balance! If I'm checking back my entire value range, then I suppose I'd have to check all my double barrel bluffs as well just to stay balanced? Essentially, I have zero hands I'm going to double barrel?


  • MasonIsAClownMasonIsAClown Posts: 102Subscriber, Professional
    What I meant was that when we check this flop with 99 we might induce two streets of bluffs especially from a seemingly competent opponent. Since he also is going to be betting for value with a lot of his range on both streets, it becomes more a guessing game regarding how often his range contains enough bluffs to make the call down profitable. Typically it likely will not, particularly if he can vbet KJ with some small frequency and such.

    When we bet the flop with 99, we get more info about his range, get him to typically fold some reasonable equity hands or occasionally the best hand and our range remains basically uncapped. This is essentially in agreement with the points about balance and protecting our equity also though so may be redundant.
  • workinghardworkinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Hey David. Love your videos as always. Only critic is that you keep using the same old boring American accent. What about adding some sophestication with your infamous British accent to add a little more class to the videos?
    Thanked by 1dpbuck
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