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Should I Defend with JTo?

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Comments

  • ACKACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    Depends on how big the raise isis and how bad the opener is.

    2x, 3x I'll call against a lot of players. Maybe fold to a 3x from a good aggressive player.

    If it's a 4x raise then I'd call if the player is real bad/exploitable but if the player is decent I'd be folding.

    5x or more then I'd almost always be folding. You don't need to defend wide to 4x+ open because he isn't getting a good price on the steal.
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Thehammah wrote: »
    Arenzano wrote: »
    JTo is trash. 3 bet or fold

    way way to narrow a thought. 23 is trash. JT immensly more playable as it can hit top pair thats good. as well as hitting villains range when hero hits two pair or better

    poker is about situations there are no black and white "rules"

    Wendy -- given the OP's original question. Other than saying "it depends", I think the response is appropriate.

    I suppose we could read into or try to interpret what JTown was asking. But his question was should be defend his blind with JTo QJo with zero other factors.

    Cheers
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    of course it depends. but I think JT in almost everyones definition isnt trash it has in fact alot of value in certain situations thats all I was trying to say
  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Thehammah wrote: »
    of course it depends. but I think JT in almost everyones definition isnt trash it has in fact alot of value in certain situations thats all I was trying to say
    Sorry hammah... disagree
    Out of position, in a raised pot - unless you've got a soul-read on your opponent - JT off-suit in a cash game is 3-bet or fold.
    It's trash. It's -EV to think it's any better than A4, K8 or Q7.

    Rec players have the luxury of seeing it as a half-full glass. But serious poker pros know that it's a half-empty promise that will never pay for itself in monies won vs. monies lost.
  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    for you @Thehammah.... Shania!

    enjoy!
  • FreeLunchFreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    One more post from me about how "defending" is a stupid concept. In limit, or NL tournaments it matters a lot. In no limit cash games you could probably fold the blinds for the rest of your life and it would have very little impact on your win rate. Most players would probably increase their win rate if they allways folded the blinds. You can always raise for value and there will be some setups where you can bluff well from the blinds, but unless you are really clear that you are doing it for one of those two reason, just give up on the idea of there being anything to defend.
    Thanked by 1Arenzano
  • Dab44Dab44 Posts: 411Subscriber
    It depends whose raising and what their range is, but alot of time time just fold OOP...I think people defend way too wide on the blinds.. Don't be one of those guys
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    FreeLunch wrote: »
    One more post from me about how "defending" is a stupid concept. In limit, or NL tournaments it matters a lot. In no limit cash games you could probably fold the blinds for the rest of your life and it would have very little impact on your win rate. Most players would probably increase their win rate if they allways folded the blinds. You can always raise for value and there will be some setups where you can bluff well from the blinds, but unless you are really clear that you are doing it for one of those two reason, just give up on the idea of there being anything to defend.

    Yea I've been watching this a lot my last few sessions and I'm amazed at how much I'm wasting just "defending" or calling because I have some suited weirdness and 6 people already called. Rarely hit the flop and have to fold. Certainly not winning enough when I do hit to justify it. Even a rec player said "I'm spending $50 a nights just calling my small blind". He's obviously doing it way too much but I think I can easily be wasting $10-20 a session depending on limits and that adds up. That could be $5000 a year if you played full time.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2015
    FreeLunch wrote: »
    One more post from me about how "defending" is a stupid concept. In limit, or NL tournaments it matters a lot. In no limit cash games you could probably fold the blinds for the rest of your life and it would have very little impact on your win rate. Most players would probably increase their win rate if they allways folded the blinds. You can always raise for value and there will be some setups where you can bluff well from the blinds, but unless you are really clear that you are doing it for one of those two reason, just give up on the idea of there being anything to defend.

    Perhaps the most intriguing post ITT. So you're suggesting folding everything but "thick value" hands from the blinds and bluffing in some instances? The thick value range is pretty small. So the rest of the time you'll just be handing over your blinds to the button stealer? It doesn't seem like a lot but it will add up in the long-term and just doesn't seem like an optimal strategy or a strategy that would have the best net effect on your winrate in the blinds (yes, I know it's negative no matter what you do but I think you would lose less if you defend at least some of the time with less than premiums). Also defend does not equal call. It equals call or 3bet, though in this thread we're focusing on the calling part of the defense range.

    I remember a discussion where it was pointed out that everyone's losing in the blinds - backed up by solid data from people's online stats. Then someone suggested: "well why not then just fold all but best hands from the blinds?" They ran the numbers on this and it turned out that that strategy would actually lose MUCH more in the blinds per 100 hands than a strategy that incorporated looser defense. Sorry, I forgot where I read this so I can't provide hard data but this is my recollection.
  • FreeLunchFreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    edited August 2015
    JapanTown wrote: »
    So you're suggesting folding everything but "thick value" hands from the blinds and bluffing in some instances? The thick value range is pretty small. So the rest of the time you'll just be handing over your blinds to the button stealer? It doesn't seem like a lot but it will add up in the long-term and just doesn't seem like an optimal strategy or a strategy that would have the best net effect on your winrate in the blinds

    Yep. This is not limit or a tournament - just cash, especially in capped games.

    The value hand part is obvious - especially when you might get action from worse.

    With non value hands you are most of the time not going to take down the pot pre so you will just end up losing more money when you "defend". In live poker you will often find people who will raise junk from late position and then call your 4bet. You will often find you are 3-4 way to the flop. Now what? You are out of position and playing a bigger pot against several players with a weak hand in a bad SPR. Why the hell would you put yourself in that position?

    Just as important to me is the psychology of the concept. I say this as an old school limit player - we were constantly fighting for the blinds. In no limit there really are not a lot of people trying to eek out an extra few bb an hour by attacking the blinds. When good NL players raise weak in late position they should be happy to get called as they now have lots of ways to win a bigger pot - way more fun and profitable than raise and take it. The psychology behind the idea of defending is wrong. No limit is not about defending ever. That is a trappy OMC way of thinking. Your psychology should all be about attacking and you don't get many chances to do that out of position.

    Also - how often are you really playing in games where everyone folds to the button and you can raise and take it - or where a few limpers mostly fold when the button raises? If those are your games then go ahead and eek out a small win attacking blinds - but I would suggest you find somewhere else to play where people are making bigger mistakes.

    There are of course plenty of exceptions and we can talk about them if you want, but the best exceptions are actually in multi way limped pots, not raised pots.


    Thanked by 1Arenzano
  • FreeLunchFreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    I also remember that study of online data, but live is really different than online. There is no hud telling you that their live fold to steal is 95%, Most decent regs will not even notice that you fold because they will still be getting action from 2-3 others each time they raise.
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    It also depends on how your defining "defend" if your raiseing back and re-stealing then that's fine. If your just calling your small blind or calling a raise in the blinds that's not good as you are likley missing the flop a lot and folding. You could have just folded PF and saved the money.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    JapanTown wrote: »
    Alrite, I'll make it a little more specific just for you. JTo in BB vs a button a stealer who opens 90%+ of buttons. SB folded. 100BB effective.

    vs a player like that, HU I'm flatting JTo all day long and playing post (unless I believe he's a very very good player and I wanna just stay out of his way)
    The "value" of JTo vs any kinda range here is completely irrelevant.
    What's relevant is the playability post flop and JTo plays great vs weak ass range of hands that are "technically better" (like A2o and K7s) plus we're ahead/dominate many many hands like Jx, Tx, 9x, 8x hands he def has in his range.

    I don't see a point 3betting either.
    What are we trying to do, take down 3BB preflop? Why?
    JTo plays great post so it's a total waste to 3bet.
    All trash hands will fold, the only hands that call are the ones that also play well post or dominate us and now we're in bloated pot OOP vs much much stronger range.

    vs polarized open (like in this example) you should 3b super polarized (absolute junk like 72o and premiums) and flat the middle of your range to force him play post with dominated range or at least with range that doesn't play well post flop vs out hand.

    Here's an example of a very similar situation I was in, only with even weaker hand 97o vs a young aggro guy who was raising like 90% of his BU and LP when folded to him:
    http://www.sharemypair.com/smpweb/smpviewdetails/feed_id/14176

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