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What would you do here.

FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
I don't want to give my answer to influence people.

Just sat down and literally posted.

UTG $360 raises $30 - in my games this means I got AK or TT-QQ but they can fold QQ-TT here.
MP $100 calls $30 - this player is a non-tricky fish
I am in the BB with QQ.

What would you do?


  • ACKACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    3b to 100. Maybe occasionally call against players that look real nitty.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    And if shoved on by UTG? I assume fold because no one 4b bluffs. But you have to consider what if they 4b AI with AK?
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    I absolutely think you have to 3bet here. Do you know this player? Maybe your games are nitty, but is this PLAYER nitty?

    Regardless, QQ is very likely to be the best hand here - I'd be playing it for value.

    MATH EDITED - THANKS FTMR - A 4bet shove is an interesting proposition. Let's say you do 3bet to 100. If he shoves, you'd have to call 230 to make 490 (assuming MP folds - and if MP calls with his baby stack, whatever, he's irrelevant - his money is just helping your odds).

    You're getting 2.1:1. Are you good 1 out of 3.1 times here? Are there any combos of JJ, AK, AQs, the other QQ, etc that he might jam here? If that's a definitive NO, then I guess you have to fold. So that really just comes down to your read on this player and what you think he thinks of you.
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    Is your oppenent capable of 4betting with AK? If you 3bet to 100, pot will be $30+30+100=$160. UTG has 330 behind. UTG shoves pot is $160+330= $490. You need put in $230 more. So $230/$490 = 0.469 or about 1/2.1 so we need 1/3.1 equity which is about 32% equity. Against a range of AA, KK, AK, our hand QQ has about 40% equity. If your opponent is REALLY capable of 4betting with AK then you should call. If our opponent is capable of only 4betting with AA, KK we have 18% equity and we must fold.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    Ok so that is what I expect to hear.

    But consider this. What happens to all the in between hands? This is vs an unknown.

    What if they fold all hands that we want to have call like 99-JJ, AQ. If they call the result is great.

    Or call with AA/KK considering the SPR.

    Where is the optimal raise level considering all these factors. What if raising less is better. Certainly not calling. Like you said we don't care about the shorty here.
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Sometimes taking down dead money without having to play a hand is perfectly fine. This might be on of those spots. Over sixty bucks dead money is perfectly legit.

    If you call: you go three ways OOP. You let them see three cards, (and maybe more?) without having to pay extra money. Calling QQ also shrinks your 3betting range REALLY narrow, but that's a smaller issue. Just something to think about.

    But if they call and that's great, then raise to a size you believe you'd get calls. If you think they'll fold TT to 100, then maybe make it less. If they're folding 99, for example, then frankly, you probably weren't going to make much off of them postflop anyway. So may as well try to get them to make a bad preflop call. Maybe they'll spaz; maybe they'll get stubborn; maybe they're just loose and ready to shovel money into the pot. You don't hate any of these options, but you can't realize any of them if you don't 3bet.

    Any reasonable raise will pretty much deny his set odds, too, so if he hits a set and you pay him off, it's not really a disaster. If he hits an A or a K, that sucks, but that's part of the game - and those cards are going to flop about a third of the time so learning how to play this type of spot is really valuable long term.

    How to play that spot is a different conversation, though; for now, I see no reason not to 3bet and get more money in the pot likely ahead OR just take down the dead money from players from whom you weren't going to get much more money in the first place.
  • David ChanDavid Chan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Depends on how aggro the PFR will play if we just overcall QQ. If PFR is likely to cbet bluff on whiffed flops, then overcalling QQ to CR on good flops is best.

    Otherwise, I would just 3bet small for value.
    Thanked by 1FuzzyDunlop
  • JimPsarosJimPsaros Posts: 107Subscriber
    Unless there is some tricky dynamic going on, this has to be a 3 bet.
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    Unless the villian is superaggro and will value own himself, I would make a small 3bet one which could be called by AQ, JJ, TT, KQ, AJ for value and possibly take down the dead money which would be fine as well. Most rec players if they have AA or KK will 4 bet you if you 3 bet. Depending upon the population tendencies in your local card room at the time you are playing can help you determine if you can call that 4bet.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    Yes raising is correct.

    (A) Ok so lets say you raise $100 They both call. Pot $300 with $260 left in the other player's stack.

    (B) I thought what if I raise $85. Pot is now $255 with $275 left in the OR stack. A little bit better.

    (C) I even thought what if you raise to $65.
    If OR just calls, the other player can now shove and you can raise over the top and split the OR from the caller and get it heads up. If the caller just calls. Now the pot is $195 with the OR having $295 left.

    Raising is certainly right. In all these cases if the OR shoves we can fold assuming typical live players who pretty much only 4b with KK+.

    The weird thing is what is the difference between all 3? In all 3 cases we will get shoved on by KK+. In all 3 cases we deny odds to the shorty and at best make it break even for the OR to set mine. Only in (C) can I raise, get the shorty to commit and then over raise that commitment over the top.

    I thought about this hand for a while if I could have played it different from my $100 raise. I actually think (C) is the best play because it still commits the shorty, makes the pot less, and gains information on the OR for a cheaper price. A $100 raise might get the shorty to fold which in all likeliness he is still shoving/calling considering the pots odds and the old "pot is too big to fold". Usually if they have AK they just call. Worst situation is an Axx or Kxx flop vs 2 people when the pot is $300 with the OR only having $260 left. What could I CB here without looking so incredibly weak.
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