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flopped the nuts: big pot or small pot?

chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
haha -- tricked you into reading a plo thread!!
2/5 PLO, live. $300-1000. stacks range from $500-3500.

hero ($1460) has won a couple of pots without showdown after getting into a well established game. i recently just showed down a hand that i won in a 4 way pot after the flop checked thru, then 4 players put in two bets on the turn when i turned 2nd set of 9s (with no straight) and though 2 different straights completed on the river, hero won with 3 9s. most villians know me fairly well and expect that i generally have what i'm representing (though probably some are aware that I can use blockers and bluff cards)

UTG+2 ($3000) is on my left (and is one of the guys who i don't know at this table) and has adjusted from small raises pre almost every hand after i've punished him a couple of times by re-pot squeezing pre after everyone called his initial raise. he stopped raising every hand and is now raising probably about 35% pre.

BB ($560) is a guy who i've known for a long time. he is generally pretty solid and knows the game fairly well. he doesn't ever play holdem anymore. however, he has been losing tonight and has made some mannerisms and vocalizations that lead me to think that he is teetering on the verge of tilt, if not already there. he paid off in a big pot earlier by check/calling river in a spot that i think was an easy fold -- i was kinda surprised.

preflop ($7):
hero ($1460) limps UTG+1 with KdJdJh8s. UTG+2 raises pot to $20, 5 callers to me, i call.

flop ($140):
JcTh2s
checks to hero. hero checks? pots? bets 1/2 pot?

my thoughts are: 1) i have the nuts -- get $ in, 2) there are almost no blank cards except for a 6,5,4,3, so if i bet strong and get 1 or more callers, i pretty much have to check/fold most turns. in a 7 way raised pot, it is almost guaranteed that someone has some kind of wrap -- the curse of the JTx flop -- it completely crushes ranges in single raised pots, especially in plo. if i bet and get raised, do i want to play for stacks with no redraw and almost no blanks?

Comments

  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    The k and 8 in your hand help block some of the straightening cards. I would bet to avoid it getting checked through. You don want someone with baby cards turning a wrap. Bet and if you get raised call and pot safe turns.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I was thinking your K and 8 are blockers too. also many olayers will have each others outs. if it gets to a multiway all in Dont you have more equity than anyone else? I would actually try to keep as many players in as possible to build the pot. With so much equity dont you want people to call for draws? I mean wont their hand be face up if say a 7 rolls off and all of a sudden someone leads pot into you? Just one caller and now you have odds to call to fill up?

    just some thoughts.

    what I dont want is to get heads up with the wrap guy and everyone else fold. There I might be in as bad as 60/40 situation..

    ww
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am definitely betting to build the pot, something like 100-110 maybe.
  • eselspieleselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    I am definitely betting to build the pot, something like 100-110 maybe.
    +1
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Ahh, the good old strong hand that doesn't play great OOP in PLO.

    How many folks are left to act behind you and how likely are they to bet this board do you think? The ideal situation here would be being able to check, have significant action behind you and check/shove or check-raise most of your stack.

    Also, vaguely connected single suited jacks almost UTG might just be a fold pre flop, especially deep stacked and with an active player with direct position on you.
  • I would just lead and get it in now. I don't expect a naked AAxx or KKxx to cbet this board without decent equity and Id hate to have it get checked through. This is much different than a board of J62r for obvious straight draw heavy reasons.

    Bart
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Hero bets $135, utg+2 tanks and finally calls, folds around to BB who pretty much snap ships his $560. Action on hero: call? Re-ship? Fold?
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Fold? Are you serious???
    Both calling and shoving are definitely +EV. I'd rather shove with these stack sizes in order to shut UTG+2 out, but I am curious what more experienced PLO players think about it.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Given stack sizes, I think the only play is shipping in. Flatting will probably let UTG+2 play his hand perfectly with only one bet left to play.
  • You've got to ship. We don't even know what kind of equity the guy to your left has but if you just call he'll be getting something like 3-1 on his money. He may then pick up more outs on the turn which would make it correct for him to continue on again. Hands like these exemplify the difference between NL and PLO. You'd rather deny him pot odds and get it in ahead with the shorty right now.

    Bart
  • RogerHardyRogerHardy Posts: 794Subscriber
    OminousCow said

    Ahh, the good old strong hand that doesn't play great OOP in PLO.

    How many folks are left to act behind you and how likely are they to bet this board do you think? The ideal situation here would be being able to check, have significant action behind you and check/shove or check-raise most of your stack.

    Also, vaguely connected single suited jacks almost UTG might just be a fold pre flop, especially deep stacked and with an active player with direct position on you.
    This is what I was thinking, just fold preflop. Then again I'm entirely new to the game. But JJ isn't any great shakes, you've got the K high flush draw not the ace high nut flush draw, and the 8 is just dangling there doing nothing for you.

    As played, I would get as much in as possible as fast as possible, but then I'm too new to PLO to be slow playing anything.

    Roger
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    This hand definitely does not meet ANY criteria for slowplaying, namely: it is a big underdog to remain the nuts on the turn and the river. That being said (thanks Tuchman, now u got me saying it! By the way who intentionally spells their name wrong on their twitter handle?), I don't want to give a good price for the villian on my left to peel with something like overpair+gs+2 bd FDs that has decent equity against me.

    Thinking about some previous posts that have said to fold pre: maybe I was too eager to be playing hands after sitting in 2 card for a while and having a pretty decent read on the utg+2 villian (winner's tilt?), but hands with a high pair plus suitedness + connectedness don't come around all that often. Point taken that they should certainly be played carefully from early position. I think that is another element of plo that takes a bit of mental effort/awareness is to adjust to play tighter in EP in full ring plo. I do this well in plo tournaments but this might be a leak in full ring cash games.
  • Chili,

    I think this hand is definitely playable in most if not all of the weak lineups that you will see in live PLO. Only in the toughest games would I fold this preflop (possibly FR online when it ran). People are still making huge mistakes post so not playing this hand is giving up too much.

    Bart
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Yeah, I agree that this hand is playable in most lineups. But if we take away one of its attributes (FD, SD) it is probably a muck from EP. I have been open folding junky QQxx and JJxx from up front and have been happy with the results.*

    * full ring early position
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