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How do you play against people who Double and Triple Barrel w underpair?

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
I have QQ or KK and flop comes Ace high and I'm oop. I chk , he fires, I call. Turn is a blank, Do I chk call again and chk fold river? I think I ask this a lot but against someone who I consitantly double barrels and will many times triple barrel IM not sure this is the right play to chk call chk call chk fold. I like to chk call flop than fire turn. I'm turning my hand face up but against someone who will triple barrel a lot which u see online more it seems like chk call betting the turn is the way to go.

Comments

  • Fish FryerFish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    There isn't really a set answer to this type of question. I would look for patterns in the persons play and try to exploit that. Routinely making hero calls with under pairs will be pretty bad -EV unless you have a specific read on them. If you are going to raise in EP with large pairs and then instantly check every overcard flop, you are going to be pretty easy to exploit. Try cbetting once in a while, foling some of the time, mixing up your play to not be so predictable, etc... Not every flop will agree with you, sometimes you have to play poker.

    On an unrelated note, and I am not attacking you with this...you ask so many questions of varying topics. You really might be best served with focusing on one topic and giving yourself time to really master it. Once you master it, then work on the next thing and blend it into what you already master. Similar to building a house...you don't start with installing windows and walls and frame around it. You start with a foundation and slowly, logically add pcs. until you have the finished product you want. Reading your posts seems like you are all over the place, which I really think clouds the picture.

    Just my opinion as an outsider looking in.
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    fold
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    if you have KK and have not been the preflop aggressor, there's usually something wrong.
    (not always true, but for the most part)
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Thats nonsense. Most rediculous thing I ever heard. Poker is a complex game and you should constantly be looking at many different examples and different ways to play turn, river etc. Too say I'm just going to focus only on my preflop hand ranges without working on other things as well is limiting yourself.
    Zach Z-H said

    There isn't really a set answer to this type of question. I would look for patterns in the persons play and try to exploit that. Routinely making hero calls with under pairs will be pretty bad -EV unless you have a specific read on them. If you are going to raise in EP with large pairs and then instantly check every overcard flop, you are going to be pretty easy to exploit. Try cbetting once in a while, foling some of the time, mixing up your play to not be so predictable, etc... Not every flop will agree with you, sometimes you have to play poker.

    On an unrelated note, and I am not attacking you with this...you ask so many questions of varying topics. You really might be best served with focusing on one topic and giving yourself time to really master it. Once you master it, then work on the next thing and blend it into what you already master. Similar to building a house...you don't start with installing windows and walls and frame around it. You start with a foundation and slowly, logically add pcs. until you have the finished product you want. Reading your posts seems like you are all over the place, which I really think clouds the picture.

    Just my opinion as an outsider looking in.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    if you have KK and have not been the preflop aggressor, there's usually something wrong.
    (not always true, but for the most part)
    I am the preflop agressor of course. What made you think I"m not ? THats not my question
  • Fish FryerFish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    wildncrazyguy said

    Thats nonsense. Most rediculous thing I ever heard. Poker is a complex game and you should constantly be looking at many different examples and different ways to play turn, river etc. Too say I'm just going to focus only on my preflop hand ranges without working on other things as well is limiting yourself.
    Zach Z-H said

    There isn't really a set answer to this type of question. I would look for patterns in the persons play and try to exploit that. Routinely making hero calls with under pairs will be pretty bad -EV unless you have a specific read on them. If you are going to raise in EP with large pairs and then instantly check every overcard flop, you are going to be pretty easy to exploit. Try cbetting once in a while, foling some of the time, mixing up your play to not be so predictable, etc... Not every flop will agree with you, sometimes you have to play poker.

    On an unrelated note, and I am not attacking you with this...you ask so many questions of varying topics. You really might be best served with focusing on one topic and giving yourself time to really master it. Once you master it, then work on the next thing and blend it into what you already master. Similar to building a house...you don't start with installing windows and walls and frame around it. You start with a foundation and slowly, logically add pcs. until you have the finished product you want. Reading your posts seems like you are all over the place, which I really think clouds the picture.

    Just my opinion as an outsider looking in.
    OK, good luck then. I'm suggesting that you post questions that are all over the place with concepts applied in the wrong areas, repeatedly. IMHO, from reading your posts, you have too many things going on at once and it would be best to focus on the complexities of the game in smaller, manageable chunks to help alleviate the mis-application of theories etc... Obviously I know nothing, so good luck!
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Dan, I guess I interpreted your OP like you were not the preflop aggressor, since you checked the flop. If you were the PFR, I would almost always cbet the flop, even with an Ace on the board. The reason is that against tough online opponents, checking puts you in a world of hurt, since a flop check-calling range is extremely difficult to balance. So, villain can make your life really difficult by barreling flop, turn, and river in a somewhat balance way, and you have no clue what to do. Just cbet the flop and then check the turn maybe, that's generally easier.

    Of course there are alternative lines that can include checking the flop, but to be honest you should have specific reads about your villain in order to choose such a line. This spot is a good example why online and live are two completely different animals. Live, you can check those flops all day, since it is easier to make good decisions on later streets.

    Also, my understanding is that Zach just recommends to you to approach the different aspects of the game step-by-step, and not all at once. To me, this sounds like a very reasonable way of studying poker. Think about it. The game is just way too complex to learn many different concepts simultaneously.
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    poker is a complex game. but in order to get better you first have to get good. In a lot of your examples you are in spots that none of us would find ourselves in. Its hard to offer advice when the situation should really never come up. Figuring out how to play against an op who will barrel a lot with a balanced range is irrelivant. You dont have to know that to beat games below 100/200. Work on the fundamentals and then come back to this shit

    But i stand by my answer. The best way to counter this is to fold.
  • surfdealersurfdealer Posts: 21Member
    experiment with cbetting OPP and IP it will surprise you
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    With low SPRs on dry boards against more aggressive players I often like to check my entire range since betting the flop is not necessary to get stacks in by the river. This can help to keep their ranges wider so that hands < top pair still have value against them.

    With deeper stacks it becomes more important to bet in order to threaten stacks and disguise your hand. If you are playing against the same decent players on a regular basis, in order to check with KK, you also need to protect your range by checking strong hands as well. As others said though, it is hard to balance this range since when stacks are deep, you want to build the pot with your strong hands and so don't have much to balance your weaker checks with.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    AS far as what Mike said. Mike, you obviously arent a winning player. None of what you ever say makes sense or is helpful. I am a winning player at these stakes and a much bigger winning player live. What do you mean not get yourself in these situations? YOu never saw an ace pop up w KK oop? And I'm beyond learning how to beat 1-2 Mike unlike yourself it sounds like.

    Whats:
    You must be new to listening to Bart Hanson. Obviously its easier to bet bet since betting gets you more info but that's the Mike Simpleton way to play poker. Bart always says you chk this flop since most of the time only better will call. He advocates chking KK with an Ace on the board to since worse wont call 2 streets but will bet it. I personally liked betting out myself since its easier to play that way but I've found experimenting with this that against aggressive opponents chking 2 streets even though it puts you in the dark results in getting paid more. You can bet 2 streets and than you know he has an ace I guess but you wont know betting one against someone who's capable of floating. I always struggly with this still though which is why I asked the question.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    wildncrazyguy said

    Whats:
    You must be new to listening to Bart Hanson. Obviously its easier to bet bet since betting gets you more info but that's the Mike Simpleton way to play poker. Bart always says you chk this flop since most of the time only better will call. He advocates chking KK with an Ace on the board to since worse wont call 2 streets but will bet it. I personally liked betting out myself since its easier to play that way but I've found experimenting with this that against aggressive opponents chking 2 streets even though it puts you in the dark results in getting paid more. You can bet 2 streets and than you know he has an ace I guess but you wont know betting one against someone who's capable of floating. I always struggly with this still though which is why I asked the question.
    I believe that whats? makes the distinction between 1/2 live and on line in his post. Bart's coaching focuses on live play, so hence, when whats? says "This spot is a good example why online and live are two completely different animals. Live, you can check those flops all day, since it is easier to make good decisions on later streets." he is agreeing with Bart's thoughts on the subject that you note above.

    Again, online =/= live in terms of optimal lines and stratgies.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Zach Z-H said

    There isn't really a set answer to this type of question. I would look for patterns in the persons play and try to exploit that. Routinely making hero calls with under pairs will be pretty bad -EV unless you have a specific read on them. If you are going to raise in EP with large pairs and then instantly check every overcard flop, you are going to be pretty easy to exploit. Try cbetting once in a while, foling some of the time, mixing up your play to not be so predictable, etc... Not every flop will agree with you, sometimes you have to play poker.

    On an unrelated note, and I am not attacking you with this...you ask so many questions of varying topics. You really might be best served with focusing on one topic and giving yourself time to really master it. Once you master it, then work on the next thing and blend it into what you already master. Similar to building a house...you don't start with installing windows and walls and frame around it. You start with a foundation and slowly, logically add pcs. until you have the finished product you want. Reading your posts seems like you are all over the place, which I really think clouds the picture.

    Just my opinion as an outsider looking in.
    Zach:
    I have the foundation bud. Why you dont think so is beyond me. I'm a winng player who has played for years. I guess once you get to my point these questions will make sense to you. I know there isn't a set answer to many questions but this is a specific example against a specific type of player and what do you do in this example is what I'm asking. Slamming on people vs actually giving an answer like Bart does shows you'll never be a good coach -just like Mike. How in the h am I misapplying theories? I love how people like you act like experts but can't answer specific questions. If I misapplied a theory here how so? What's wrong with my thought process here? I'm totally open to criticism on how to get better but guys like you and Mike stating move down to 1-2 live which I have been crushing for years and no longer play is just making you look bad and shows you actually dont know what youre atlking about. Just more guys acting like pros who are no contributing anything but sounding rediculous. Look at my reponses to posts. They actually adress the question vs stating redicuolous statements with no reasoning or logic to back up those statements. If you think my thought process is off - How so? What am I thinking abotu incorrectly? My guess is you can't answer that.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    wildncrazyguy said
    Zach Z-H said

    There isn't really a set answer to this type of question. I would look for patterns in the persons play and try to exploit that. Routinely making hero calls with under pairs will be pretty bad -EV unless you have a specific read on them. If you are going to raise in EP with large pairs and then instantly check every overcard flop, you are going to be pretty easy to exploit. Try cbetting once in a while, foling some of the time, mixing up your play to not be so predictable, etc... Not every flop will agree with you, sometimes you have to play poker.

    On an unrelated note, and I am not attacking you with this...you ask so many questions of varying topics. You really might be best served with focusing on one topic and giving yourself time to really master it. Once you master it, then work on the next thing and blend it into what you already master. Similar to building a house...you don't start with installing windows and walls and frame around it. You start with a foundation and slowly, logically add pcs. until you have the finished product you want. Reading your posts seems like you are all over the place, which I really think clouds the picture.

    Just my opinion as an outsider looking in.
    Zach:
    I have the foundation bud. Why you dont think so is beyond me. I'm a winng player who has played for years. I guess once you get to my point these questions will make sense to you. I know there isn't a set answer to many questions but this is a specific example against a specific type of player and what do you do in this example is what I'm asking. Slamming on people vs actually giving an answer like Bart does shows you'll never be a good coach -just like Mike. How in the h am I misapplying theories? I love how people like you act like experts but can't answer specific questions. If I misapplied a theory here how so? What's wrong with my thought process here? I'm totally open to criticism on how to get better but guys like you and Mike stating move down to 1-2 live which I have been crushing for years and no longer play is just making you look bad and shows you actually dont know what youre atlking about. Just more guys acting like pros who are no contributing anything but sounding rediculous. Look at my reponses to posts. They actually adress the question vs stating redicuolous statements with no reasoning or logic to back up those statements. If you think my thought process is off - How so? What am I thinking abotu incorrectly? My guess is you can't answer that.
    If you are a winning player that crushed 1/2 Live you should be able to handle people that double and triple barrel when you have an underpair. The answer that Zach gave is correct - It depends on your opponent.
  • Dan,

    You've got to stop taking everyone's comments about your hands personally and you have to stop directly attacking other subscribers. The Seat Open forum is a fresh change from the strategy threads of 2+2 where constant flaming, trolling, and off topic derails occur on a daily basis. If you disagree with the advice given please do not resort to name calling. Like I said last week, we are all here to help each other.

    There are nearly 700 members of Seat Open now and you are the only one that is negatively posting on a regular basis. I want to keep this community friendly so please refrain from this type of behavior in the future.

    In terms of this hand and others that you have recently posted I think you really are mixing apples with oranges here. I don't know what the state of Merge is but you can't compare the skill levels of $1-$2 online with low level, live NL. Players in those games are going to be more balanced, fundamentally sound and exploitative. I can't give you the correct answer whether or not to bet KK on an ace high board because it really depends on your opponent. Like some earlier posters said, in a live game with predictable, weak opposition you can check this flop all day. In a game where your opponents are playing off of YOUR hand strength you are going to be be put in some very difficult spots by always taking the same line in these awkward situations.

    Bart
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Part of the problem that people are having with your posts is that they are very much *not* specific. In your original post you don't provide any information along the lines of:
    • Stack sizes
    • Villain type (beyond "someone who I consitantly double barrels and will many times triple barrel")
    • Pre-flop action
    • Pre-flop position
    • History with villain and/or table dynamics
    • Stakes
    • Online vs. offline

    Asking questions about this scenario is not useful. You fail to provide this information and then get very defensive when people ask for it and/or get understandably confused about what you are saying. This will not lead to productive discussion and makes folks less willing to provide detailed feedback on your future posts.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Dan, the tone which you use in your posts is clearly inappropriate by a large margin. It's good to see that Bart doesn't accept that, because this site would turn into a second 2+2 sooner or later.

    I have said this before in another one of your threads: It's totally beyond me why you constantly ask questions on this forum, but choose to ignore the replies you get, or start flaming the people who take their time and do answer you. Not only is this impolite, it's also pretty shortsighted for two obvious reasons. First, you'll get less and less responses in the future, which can't be in your own interest. Second, you won't improve as a player if you don't really think through how other players are approaching the game. You can take a look at many interviews with successful high stakes players. When asked "how did you improve your game to the level you are today"; pretty much every one of those guys' answers include something along the lines of "thinking through those situations where I was disagreeing with other players who I respect".

    Also, Zach and OminousCow nailed it when they said that your question is way to vague to give one black-and-white answer. You ask a question which is so broad that it can't be anwered, but you refuse to accept that. OminousCow listed the most important factors which have to be considered, but which we don't have any information on. If this hand is played online, you should have various stats about villain. Stuff like wtSD, w$atSD, w$wsf are all relevant.

    Why do you think it's so hard in todays games to earn serious money from playing poker?
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