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Raise/Call Toy Game

JCWJCW Posts: 591Subscriber
edited December 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This week I called in the live show with a hand. And I am still thinking about one of the concepts talked about in the show.

Board is 9 9 J T

You raised preflop and get multiple callers. You checked flop. Villain bets turn. You are deep. You have one of two hands: TT or KQ. If you HAD to call with one and raise with the other, which would it be. And more importantly why?



  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,127Administrator, LeadPro
    Be sure to listen to the call-in show for this week if you want a discussion about JCW and my discourse.

    40:00 in.


  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    We're in position here?

    Gun to my head I flat TT because I feel like we cover the board a bit and our hand isnt vulnerable.
  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    funny lucky - i'd do the opposite
    since I feel that we've likely got the best hand with TT - I don't mind getting more chips in the middle. The only cards that may counterfeit our hand are a 9 or J. I'd feel comfortable raising and calling any shove (since raising opens up the action again).
    with our str8, we've got, like, the 23rd nuts - so while Bart might advocate raise/fold, I think a more profitable line (at least in our games) would be a smooth call.
  • JCWJCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Yeah I find it tough.

    On one hand, I want to get 2 streets of value with the TT. Having a near nutted hand I can even get stacks in vs. straights and some 9s/big draws.

    On the other hand, if I have to check one of the hands, the TT is less vulnerable and also has the advantage of letting them hit flushes or worst Full Houses type of hands that also can get max value.
    Thanked by 1luckyspewy
  • JCWJCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Yeah we have position. But to argue it oop is fine too.
  • 3aces3aces Posts: 155Subscriber
    I am still grinding $300 to $500 cap games and with both I would fast play and get the chips in. I have not heard the podcast but a 9 is not folding in the smaller games as they think they got lucky vs me.
  • DavidTuchmanDavidTuchman Posts: 791Pro
    If we're deep, I prefer raising with TT .... I want to build that pot up so I can pound my opponent on the river. We can get value from so many hands that might actually "improve" on the river and end up making us even more money...If we don't build the pot on the turn, it's much more difficult to make a lot on the river.

    Think of the hands that are betting on the turn....some will contain a 9, some will contain a Q...if your opponent isn't on a stone cold bluff, it's likely he's got too big a piece to fold to your raise.

    Against some competition, I could argue that raising KQ is an overplay.

  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    with no info on the villain, this makes the question difficult to answer. Is the V competent, is he a drooler, is he someone who doesn't really think.

    If we are OOP, why would we check twice after making our hand?
    If we are in position shouldn't we raise for value, villain dependent, in either case?
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    edited December 2014
    Haven't listened yet but I would definitely raise TT and flat KQ vs. unknown villain.

    while these hands only differ in "what they beat" by 7 combos of hands (T9, J9), TT has significantly higher equity vs. a continuing range (for example, 92 has 10 outs vs. KQ).
    Thanked by 1Thehammah
  • Topset1610Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    I would also raise with TT and call KQ.

    Reasons being that TT is ahead of a larger range and I would feel more comfortable playing for stacks. I think I am folding KQ a lot of times if I raise turn and I am shoved on and we are deep on the other hand you can call with TT in this spot.
  • Sean777Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    Definitely raise with TT and call with KQ. If we raise with KQ it's kind of an overplay imo. We probably have the best hand, but he's going to be hard pressed to call with worse.(player dependent of course, some players will just stack off with a 9, but I didn't feel like that was the case here)

    If we have TT, then HE has all the combos of KQ in his range we can get value from, as well as 9's which may look us up drawing dead.

    In the actual hand as played I think folding the turn is a pretty big mistake, just because mostly of the odds you're getting and there being so many inferior hands out there. A $200 bet isn't really much to write home about when you're playing deep-stacked $5-$10. Remember, this pot got checked around on the flop. When the hand is this multi-way, you have to figure a 9 is going to lead into the field a good bit of the time. The whole checking to the pre-flop raiser goes out the window a bit when it's 7-handed imo.

    Your opponents probably feel a bit more comfortable calling bets on this turn with medium-strength hands after no one bets the flop. And you have majorly under repped your hand as well. Which is good, since that's how you're getting value from the QJ, etc.

    But when you're under-repping your hand, you should be less inclined to fold it. Hopefully they're giving you the loose action you want.

  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    To be clear, most of the time, against most opponents I raise both of these hands for value.

    If we HAVE to flat one, then I still flat the TT because we aren't really concerned about any rivers, and we block TJ, and 9T so he has more bluffs in his range.

    I think not raising KQ here as a standard is bad, and people are probably missing a lot of "thin" value
  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    Sean777 wrote:
    Definitely raise with TT and call with KQ. If we raise with KQ it's kind of an overplay imo. We probably have the best hand, but he's going to be hard pressed to call with worse.

    QQ-AA, Q9-A9 89, Q8, 78, AcJc, Kc,Jc, QcJc, AcXc..., so many hands can call a raise that we smoke.

  • Sean777Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    I guess you're right, it probably is a raise/fold on the turn for value. There are certain spots where I'd flat it though. I definitely have no problem flatting the original bet to try and get some action behind as well, and it disguises our hand very well, so we can perhaps get some more value if the short stack in the blinds does in fact ship.

    And I think you could make a case for either flatting turn and betting into the dry side pot on the river, OR raising turn, but I think you probably get more action on the turn since he can still be drawing at his boat or his straight, and on the river, unless he has a 9+, he can probably fold especially since it's a protected pot and he isn't worried about being bluffed.

    I stand corrected. More I think about it, I don't think it's an overplay, and if you make it small he's getting really good odds.
  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    Sean777 wrote:
    I definitely have no problem flatting the original bet to try and get some action behind as well, and it disguises our hand very well, so we can perhaps get some more value if the short stack in the blinds does in fact ship.

    These are better arguments for flatting TT, because we're not vulnerable.

    Raising KQ is for value from naked nines, hero calling one-pairs, and combo flush draws, and we need to protect our equity from part of that range. With TT we can allow all of that range to peel and play against his sizing on the river.

    I only agree with Tuch if we're super deep and don't expect to be able to get stacks in on the river when he third barrels (which also means we're too deep to be getting KQ in on the turn). Also Tuch, I think you fold out a lot of flush draws by raising tens full on the turn, so I think you're arguing against yourself.

  • beauregardbeauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    luckyspewy wrote:
    I think you fold out a lot of flush draws by raising tens full on the turn...
    I guess it depends on the Villain. But in our games, you're not folding out drawing hands by betting/raising - unless you totally price them out (All In). That's why I like betting TT.
    If you check/call TT with the "nuts" - when you bet the river (we're betting, right?), all hands that didn't get there fold. We missed out on building a pot when we had the best hand.

    With KQ, you raise and TT (or better) will simply flat you - allowing you to build the pot for them with a weaker made hand. IMO, when you raise KQ, you're only folding out hands that you would crush on the river. The rest probably have a monster draw or a better made hand.
  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    We're in position, we're not check/calling. If we were oop I would prefer to c/r TT.
  • JCWJCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    I think a huge factor in this hand is if the guy will push a Semi-Bluff over our Raise. If he will not, then raising the KQ is the better play. Since if he raises us then he mostly beats us always (or chops). The worst thing would be to raise the KQ and then feel force to call (drawing dead) or folding when he has just a draw.

    If he will push a semi-bluff, then raising the TT is a must. As we can get stacks in with him drawing nearly dead.
  • luckyspewyluckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    Bet/3bet a draw on the turn on a paired board in a full ring live game? I don't see it.
  • JCWJCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    To all the people saying they would push both (ignoring the either/or of the Toy Game), you should look up Toy Game. It is basically placing limiting conditions into poker in order to learn something. Sometimes Poker is just too big and using Toy Games can help figure things out.
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