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CLP Video No.162: Way Ahead Way Behind II; Bet Sizing

Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,115Administrator, LeadPro
edited October 2014 in Crush Live Poker Videos
This week Bart continues his examination of how bet sizing leads to way ahead way behind scenarios and how you can make smaller bets at the lower levels to obtain maximum value. Episode posts at 7:00PM PT.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/videos/way-ahead-way-behind-ii-bet-sizing
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  • StACkOffStACkOff Posts: 71Member
    edited October 2014
    Hi Bart,

    First of all I want to say that I really like what you are doing. I am a new subscriber and found out about CLP recently, this website is well design and convenient to use, you have done a great job.

    About the video, at 18:52.
    I want to discute a little bit about what you said about raising KQo here on Q82r. I am not saying I will raise on this spot, actually I might just call here. My thoughts are a little messy but I will try to put it down properly as much as I can.

    . flat call TPGK in position on dry flop
    I agree with you that there is no scary card for us except 3 aces. So most of the time we will have an easy turn to play. I like it also because it keep the variance of my game low. I don't mind play high variance, but in live poker I prefer keep it low because our sample of hands is low (vs online) and it will take more time to smooth the variance. We have plenty others reasons for just flat here: we have position, we pot control in a wa/wb situation, we might balance our flating range with some float later on.

    Where I don't agree with you is when you are saying that you don't want to raise to let vilain keep bluffing at you. I think with this flop texture, if vilain is bluffing, is very often an one and done stab at the flop. If vilain is competent, I don't think we can extract more value from his bluffing range. Sometimes vilain might pick a backdoor FD and fire another bullet, but most of the time the turn will brick and vilain giving up his bluff.



    . raise flop TPGK on dry flop
    I play both live and online. Online I play only head-up cash game, I just love it. And online HU in 3bet pot I found myself value raising this kind of spot and it work. Here what I think:

    - depending on vilain, I like to bluff raise this kind of flop, here it's Q82r I might bluff raise with TJ T9 J9, AXs with backdoor FD and some other hand with some weak equity

    - I like the bluff raise with this stack size because is hard for vilain oop if he is bluffing to either call or shove 100-250 with 900 effective. it's also a shitty spot for any medium pp like 99 TT JJ here. So you actually put a lot of pressure on vilain.

    - if you bluff raise this kind of spot you need to balance your range, and because the flop is very dry and we are not reping a lot of value, we can merge with TP

    - vilain knowing that you are capable of bluff raising this kind of flop, you might get more value from medium pp or a spazz (I saw people rebluff shove with AKs 2OVC+bdFD in this kind of spot). so by raising TP here you end up getting more value from worst because your perceived range is polarise.

    So the reason why I might raise flop here:
    1. a way of pot control
    2. equity protection
    3. value raise, balancing my range, induce spazz
    4. getting more value than flat call


    You said that you hate his raising flop, but I think there is couple of advantage by doing it.
    After I think that this kind of play is more suitable for HU play than FR game since ranges in FR game are more solide PF, which make the CB stronger so we have less FE by bluff raising flop.

    In your opinion,
    in what situation is better to flat call and why?
    in what situation is better to raise and why?

    (taking in account the more variable possible, like metagame, dynamic, flop texture, effective stack, image, etc.)

    nice video btw :)
    GL on tables.
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,115Administrator, LeadPro
    In all honesty unless there is some sort of leveling war going on between you and your opponent which basically is so rare in a 3 bet pot at this level it is barely worth talking about, and you are trying to depolarize your flop raising range the only reason why I can think of raising the flop would be for equity protection but if that was the case and the turn went check-check why would you call the river? You a raising the flop to induce a reverse float planning that your opponent will bluff the river? These types of dynamics just don't exist in live games.

    Also--"- if you bluff raise this kind of spot you need to balance your range, and because the flop is very dry and we are not repping a lot of value, we can merge with TP". In theory yes, in practice no. You just don't see enough live hands in your career in similar situations to take any line that is not the most positive EV now. The game moves too slow and players' memories are great enough to make proper adjustments to unbalanceness. Our hand histories aren't written to a database like we do online. I mean how often do you get to merge a top pair only raise in a three bet pot against the same opponent at a live table? Once a year, if that in a large player pool?

    Bart
  • StACkOffStACkOff Posts: 71Member
    edited October 2014
    StACkOff said: I am not saying I will raise on this spot, actually I might just call here.
    with no history, no dynamic, and no further informations on vilain's tendencies, I just call here because I prefer pot control in wa/wb situation, especially in a 3bet pot and we have position.
    Bart wrote:
    so rare in a 3 bet pot at this level it is barely worth talking about.
    Bart wrote:
    in practice no. You just don't see enough live hands in your career in similar situations to take any line that is not the most positive EV now. The game moves too slow and players' memories are great enough to make proper adjustments to unbalanceness. [...]I mean how often do you get to merge a top pair only raise in a three bet pot against the same opponent at a live table?
    You got a point here, this kind of spot is too rare, so it is not necessary to balance our range in this kind of situation. So yes, clearly in live game, we don't need to raise in this kind of spot. (different in HU play where 3bet pot are more common, where the dynamic and historic are different, and range are wilder, so you might consider a raise flop but it's another discussion)

    In this spot, I will evaluate vilain range to {99 TT JJ, 88 QQ KK AA, AQ KQ, AK AJ}
    After a call flop, what do you do turn if vilain:
    1. 2barrel on 9, T, J, off suited
    2. 2barrel on 9, T, J, suited

    3. 2barrel on 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, off suited
    4. 2barrel on 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, suited

    5. check on 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J
    6. check on K
    7. check on A
  • colethomascolethomas Posts: 2Subscriber

    Hi, Bart this is my first post as I usually stay quiet but my biggest grip in live play is the use of electronics, ipod cell phones etc. Recently I played at the Borgata 2-5 and 6 out of 10 players were not concerned in the game at all. 2 players were watching a movie on ipod, 1 doing a ipad crossword puzzle and the other 3 playing with something else.
    Some players say it is a good thing that others are not paying attention. I agree with that, but to me it seems to ruin a game especially for a rereactional player who is looking for a good time and a few laughs. not watching a hooded guy with sun glasses headphones and not involved in the actual poker game.
    Years ago before even cell phones the rocks would read the paper or a book and that even took away from the game. A club I belonged to at the time outlawed reading, headphones etc. and the games were the best I have ever played. The owner's attitude was if you want to play poker than play poker. This made players get involved and play more hands than normal which in turn was better for the good players anyway. Those games were the most fun times you could have because you had to be involved one way or another.
    The person next to Harry was more interested in his laptop than being on a televised show.
    It may be your game is by invitation and could set a few simple changes and make the game more interesting.
    Thanks for the podcasts as they keep me alert while driving and they are very informative.
    Regards Tom
  • JWest0926JWest0926 Posts: 15Subscriber, Professional
    Hi Bart, I'm a beginner and should probably just watch your videos nonstop, they are excellent as I learn to play live. In this video you state that that greatest opportunity to learn is not to price your opponents out of continuing with worse.

    With my strong hands AK, AQ, JJ on flops where I hit or my overpair is above the board, I tend to bet 1/2 pot if I am the pre flop raiser. I do this on two tone boards or semi connected boards, to give the draws the wrong price to continue.

    Often, they don't continue. Perhaps I should be sizing this bet less than 1/2? and my turn bet, I typically size that close to half pot or just over again. Am I leaving value on the table by taking these pots down with these size bets at 1/3?

    I look forward to learning if I am leaving value on the table here. I'm okay getting sucked out on from time to time.

    Thanks in advance,
    Jon
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