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How to play a flopped crappy two pair from the BB when raised?

UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
I played this hand a few months ago, but for some reason I haven't thought discussing it until now. Since I'm choosing to spend the day not playing. Because now that I think about it, I think I took the worst possible line.

Main villain in this hand is an unknown who looks a little bit like action. Sports jersey, tattoos. But I haven't seen him do anything maniacal yet in the first 20 minutes.

2/5 ~800 effective

There are 3 limpers and villain overlimps the button
SB completes
I'm in the BB and check with 62

Flop 2 5 6 rainbow
SB checks
I bet 25
one caller in middle
Villain raises to 100

Do we:
Call the flop and c/f the turn if he continues betting heavily
B/f as we would with an overpair
Get it in and hope he's overplaying top pair or something like 77-99
3-bet the flop and fold to a re-raise

Comments

  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Interesting spot. I'm thinking call, check turn and evaluate. I think there are so many hands you beat (the one pair/overpairs) that could reraise you here, but the difficulty is that you wil be out of position for the rest of the hand, so you try to keep the pot small. I prefer checking the turn over bet/folding to keep the pot small and get more information cheaply.

    I also contemplated 3betting to $300 and folding to RR, but I don't like that because many villains would get it in with an overpair on the flop (especially if he slowplayed a premium), even as deep as you are. I think it's also viable but higher variance to RR and get it in on the flop.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    This is the kind of board Bart talks about attacking in position in limped pots

    I do think that if he's not a donk, he's never getting his stack in with worse. But we're OOP for the rest of the hand, the pot is getting bloated, and there are a number of ways the board could run out ugly.

    For those of you who are wondering why you shouldn't play junk OOP: This is why :)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Well I think you hand is too good to fold on flop.. but I wouldnt reraise either I think that is an overplay. I have seen alot of players make this kind of raise with say a pair and a straight draw.. So 64, 63, 54, 53, etc...See what villain does on turn.. If he bombs it then I would probably fold. If he bets say 150 to 200 then I think there is a pretty good chance you can call and it will get to showdown.

    Wendy
  • I would call and see what he does on the turn. IF his sizing is kind of smallish I would probably bet blank rivers. Sometimes I'll call C/c check fold here as well if turn sizing is in between. At this level you never have to worry about a villain betting a weaker hand for value since you look like you have strong holding.

    Bart
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    I might be a little too nitty in these situations, but I would fold for the following reasons:

    1. The villain's value range has us utterly smashed; we are drawing to 4 outs sometimes with significant reverse implied odds even when we fill up. This adds up to our hand playing terribly, especially OOP.
    2. Barring reads, the villain's range is completely consistent with this value range and his line looks very very strong. I think he would definitely limp with, 22, 55, 66, 65, and 34. You bet pot (after drop) into a field of 5 other players way out of position. It would take a very specific read that the villain is capable of bluffing in this spot which it seems like you don't have.
    3. Smaller betsizing on the turn doesn't even mean that we are ahead; the villain might start having second thoughts about driving top two hard but bet anyway. Also, if the villain does happen to be semibluffing with 78 or 47, he could easily take a free card and play perfectly against us in position on the river.
    4. The hands that we are ahead of will definitely not always choose to play a big pot with us while the hands that crush us will. This means that our hand often stacks up poorly against a turn bet even when we have an edge against the villain's flop raising range.


    The difficulty with the call and evaluate plan is that there are 3 profiles of villain that seem likely:
    *Most likely*:

    The villain is playing straightforwardly which means he has a strong value hand and when we call on the flop and/or the turn we are getting value owned. In this case, folding the flop is by far the best play.

    * 2nd most likely*:

    The villain is overplaying some sort of small overpair in addition to driving with value hands. We are still behind his range here, especially since he is more likely to keep driving with hands that crush us and will sometimes put on the brakes with hands that we beat. Folding the flop here is still the best play.

    * Least likely*:

    The villain is capable of semi-bluffing here in which case advocating calling flop and folding turn is playing right into his hands. Note that we are still behind this range (46% - 54%) even if the villain has all combos of 78 and 47 and raises them 100% of the time on the flop.


    What do you guys think?
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Put another way, across the range of player types our hand rates to be either utterly smashed, somewhat smashed, or flipping. The type of player that we are flipping against is much rarer than the others, all of which adds up to a nasty situation where we should cut our losses and fold.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I ended up just calling the flop.

    And the turn was a J. I bombed the turn, he snap shoved, and I snap folded.

    Villain showed 45 and said he thought I had a draw.

    Sigh...
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I would consider calling the flop to evaluate later streets only against weaker, and straightforward players. Against strong (aggro, creative) players, I think it is a fold, for one overwhelming reason: Reverse Implied Odds. If there has ever been a textbook example for this concept, this has to be it.
    If you contine in the hand, you'll either win a small pot or loose a big one. Due to position and stack sizes, you really have no clue what to do on which turn and river cards. If villain is somewhat thinking and aggro, he might raise the flop with A4s, A3s, 76, or other pair+backdraw combinations, and he is definitely going to continue barreling. There's no way you can profitably continue in this hand if villain is barreling with at least some frequency.

    Also, +1 to what OminousCow said.
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