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River Spot OOP after turn combo bet

UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
edited April 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This spot is always a little tricky for me: when I make a semi-bluff or combo bet C/R on the turn and miss on the river, sometimes I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do OOP

Hero ~1300 effective: Well, you guys know me. And V2 knows I'm a grinder and capable of being aggressive
V1 ~400 effective is a level zero fish, probably the only fish at the game. Just pays attention to absolute strength and how much money is going in the pot.
V2 (covers all) is a TAG grinder

V2 straddles button for $10
One limp in EP
V1 limps CO
Hero completes BB with Kd4d
V2 checks button straddle option

Flop $42
Jh Td 4h
Checks through
So at this point, neither V1 or V2 has much because V1 is pretty straightforward, and V2 would bet most hands with some equity when checked to

Turn 3d
Hero checks perhaps going for C/R
V1 bets $15
V2 raises to $50
Hero raises to $180
V1 snap folds
V2 shuffles his chips and stares for a while like he doesn't believe me and makes the call

Given that the flop checked through, a pair of 4's might actually be the best hand here. And if V1 has a better one pair hand, he'll fold just due to the fact that I'm raising. V2 could just be raising V1 because he thought $15 was a weak bet, so I thought maybe if I 3bet the turn, everyone would fold.

River 3c

Do I bomb this river, underbluff the river, or check and evaluate?


  • fishcakefishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    I think V2 is not raising V1 all that light considering they are a fish, even with the small sizing, so I'm not a huge fan of going for a c/r here in this spot. This is a bad river for you because it's so hard for you to actually rep a big hand here. Villain is likely calling all non straight/flush cards on the river. I'd give up.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    But what legitimate hands could V2 have if he checked the flop last to act?

    Also, the fish's $15 bet could have induced him to raise with a wide-ish range because when this fish bet small, he was usually weak and would fold turn. Or call turn and fold river if he had a draw.

    Oh, and feel free to turn this into a general "What do I do on the river if I don't improve when I C/R on the turn after flop was checked through with a weak hand because I thought the guy was weak-ish but he called?" concept thread. It's one of the concepts I'm trying to work on.
  • daniel9861daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    I'd start off with checking river since his turn raise/calling range is extremely polarized to draws and turned 2p that just boated up. C/c or c/f depending on how likely he is to bluff missed draws, probably c/f since he won't always bluff missed draws and might check back some of them like A2dd, A5dd, ect.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    How weak do you think V2 thinks your range is after having checked the flop? Does he think you would go for a CR twice with something like JT or 444 or go for a turn CR with 333 or 43, T3, J3?

    You know me. I think this is a decent spot to overbet. You don't have very many draw combos here to bluff with so I think K 4 probably should be in your river bluff range despite having some non-zero showdown value. His hand looks quite a bit like another turned combo draw, a weak J or a decent T that checked the flop for pot control (i.e. capped) while your range contains a lot of value hands. I also don't think you will be inducing many bluffs by trying to check call.
  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    I'm assuming I'm not as good or aggressive as some of you guys but how can we ever be good here when a TAG grinder just flatted a 3brt c/r and a huge blank fell on river.

    Does Vil not realize we just checked twice on semi wet board in basically a limped pot, he can't perceive or range to be that strong here right?

    Are we trying to get Vil to fold river because he didn't raise preflop so his range also isn't strong?
  • fishcakefishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    You also stated that villain acted like maybe he didn't believe you, OP. I think this type of act weights him way more to a made hand than a draw and the river is really bad for you.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    For the record, I actually would check both flop and turn first to act if I had two pair or a set. Because of the fact that it looks suspicious and I might get action in a much bigger pot than if I just bet out

    That being said, I probably have more combos of random weak one pair hands or draws in my range when it looks like a good steal spot (which this does look like)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    But what legitimate hands could V2 have if he checked the flop last to act?

    A weaker jack or a ten. Say J9 or J8. Maybe even QJ. He know you have fps so if i knew that i wud check mu weaker tp hands to get value later

    On the river its either bombing it to get him off a jack but thats high risk cuz against you i wud play say 33 or JT the same way against you. I wud tend to make a valuey bet against a good player that looks more like a real hand. And if he has a real hand its hard for him to raise since you have more of that board oop than he does

  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Sometimes when I have a real hand in this spot, I'll even go for a sick double C/R with another C/R on the river if I think someone might monkey bet or bluff

    Wouldn't it be even sicker to do that as a bluff?
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    I agree that going for a CR on the turn with a value hand is a good line. I suppose the main question is whether you think the villain realizes that you can have a lot of value hands here. That should determine whether you bluff with an exploitative frequency.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    He probably thinks I have more bluffs than value hands in this spot and I'm pretty polarized. But yes, I could have a value hand.

    If I had a full house on the river, I might check again because he might think we both have a busted draw and take a stab at it. Funny enough, if I C/R the river when he bets a 3 for value, then a 3 becomes a bluff catcher too.
  • daniel9861daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    What 3 gets to the river that is only trips and not a boat? V2 would check back a weak Jx or Tx and then raise it on the turn? Seems unlikely. Even if he did have those hands there's a pretty slim chance he folds on a brick river such as this.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    He probably thinks I have more bluffs than value hands in this spot and I'm pretty polarized. But yes, I could have a value hand.

    If I had a full house on the river, I might check again because he might think we both have a busted draw and take a stab at it. Funny enough, if I C/R the river when he bets a 3 for value, then a 3 becomes a bluff catcher too.

    see this is where we disagree.. total fps.. If I knew you were capable of a double cr with value and a bluff I am just not going to thin value bet the river hu against you. thats the problem with this line .. against fish fine go ahead but against a better player who knows you and can adapt you are just either spewing or losing value..

    against a better player who knows you are capable of fps a cr bet bet line I think is actually more value better bluff against this type of opponent.

  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I bet 300 which is around the amount I would have bet for value, and he snapped and angrily mucked after I showed

    So that leads me to believe that betting the river to continue a bluff might not be the best play in these kind of spots. Because I don't think he's folding a J or T (that he's less likely to have because he checked the flop in a limped pot)

    That being said, these river spots are still tricky for me OOP. What do you do when you have a busted draw without a pair? And do you ever check and hero call a bet or C/R bluff the river? Because what's he really repping if he bets the river when checked to?
  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    So u won with a 4? This guy really just snapped you off A hi here? I must play in some really bad games.

    Nh not sure how often we are gonna see this though but NH either way.
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    He had either a worse 4 or a NFD

    People usually don't call this light in the games that I play, but it was me and my style is inherently a little spewy. For some reason, I always have a FOS image even though I only play like 17% VPIP. He thought I was making a play on the turn and continuing to barrel. Which I was.

    Thanked by 1neverlearn2
  • UntreatableFPSUntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    I have this image that's hard to explain. No matter how tight I play, the manner in which I'm aggressive makes people think I'm making a move all the time. I'm not really that aggressive in terms of opening a lot of hands and cbetting and barreling a lot, but I'm aggressive in spots that look good steal spots but are also good for getting value because they look suspicious. Kind of like this hand.

    I could fold 30 hands straight and 3bet once, and nobody will think I have AA/KK
    Or I could fold to cbets 5 times in a row and when I raise once, I still won't get credit for a set
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