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delayed c-bet on the turn-is this good line or it does not matter because most people will still cal

dapperdavedapperdave Posts: 26Member
With your experiences-if you put your opponent or one of your opponents (multi-way hand) on a flush or straight draw-would a pot size delay c-bet work. Let's say you have Ac Kh and the flop comes Kh Th 4c. Everyone checks the flop (including you)and the turn is brick. You make a 3/4 or pot size bet. on the turn (does not matter your position).

Do you find that people still will call you with the draw or do they realize that their odds significantly drop on the turn.

I understand that maybe the recreational player will call you, who else calls you on the turn?


  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Doesn't this depend on the pre-flop action? How much is in the pot? What do you consider a brick? I assume you are referring to $1/2, $1/3, $2/5 game? I would think your position matters as well. Where are you betting from, up front or closer to the button. I would think, anyone with a decent T, K's with a weaker kicker, or straight draws, flush draws that paired up with the board will come along. I do not think most recreational players will consider their odds to call. Rather they will think, "you missed the flop or don't like the K, so I can call and get to showdown.
  • whatsyourplay?whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am sorry, but I guess don't fully understand your question. Or, you might actually ask the wrong type of question. Wouldn't you want a call from a drawing (=inferior) hand? In your example, first of all bet the flop! Second, bet an amount on the turn that WILL get called from a flush draw, but denies him the correct odds. What sizing he is going to call totally depends on the board texture, his tendencies, your image, the preflop action, ... and many other factors.
    If you have no reads at all, just bet around 2/3 - 3/4 of pot. Does that answer your question?
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    It's definitely a good idea to have a delayed c-betting bluff range. However, determining whether a given situation is a good spot to bluff is not an easy question and depends very much on the details of the hand. For instance, there are some players who will check-check-fold almost their entire range since they always bet the turn with everything that they will continue with. This is obviously a great spot to bluff.

    The details of your question don't really make sense though. In the situation you have laid out you have a very strong hand for the situation: top pair top kicker with no betting on the flop and no betting so far on the turn on an innocuous board. As whatsyourplay? already said, this is *not* a situation where you want to try to get your opponents to fold. You want them to call! You are asking how best to take a small guaranteed profit (what is in the pot) rather than a much larger upside of value betting with some potential risk of getting sucked out on. Always remember that the goal of poker is to win money, not to win pots. This is a distinction that many (perhaps most) recreational players do not understand and is the root cause for many suboptimal plays that you see at the table (i.e. the old nit raising to 10x the bb and then betting 2x the pot on 832 rainbow with AA because he doesn't want to get drawn out on).

    You may also find it useful to tweak your understanding of equities. The reason a naked flush draw has a higher chance to win on the flop than on the turn is that if you just run out the cards, it has two draws from the deck to hit. This is *not* the same as an actual poker hand since each post-flop round of betting occurs after a single card is revealed. A flush draw has two 20% shots rather than one 33% shot. By checking the flop with TPTK, you are letting draws realize equity for free since they are guaranteed to see two cards for one bet at most. If you had bet the flop, you would be in a much better position to put real pressure on the draws on the turn since when the pot is bigger with respect to their stacks, their implied odds drop dramatically.

    Put another way, checking the flop and then betting the turn puts the same amount of pressure on them as betting the flop and checking the turn. What is your plan if you check the flop and then a flush card hits and they bet? Folding for only one bet seems bad. Now think about the situation where you bet the flop. Using your example, let's say that on the flop the pot is $60 and you both have $180 left. If you bet $40 on the flop and are called, the pot will have $140 and you will have $140 left. You can now go all-in on the turn and put the draw in the unenviable position of having to call off not getting the correct odds (QhJh against AK on KT42 with two hearts only has 32% chance to win which is less than the required 33% to break even) or having to fold their share of the pot without having any chance to win. If you check the flop and bet the turn, the villain will now be looking at calling $40 to win $100 with $140 left to play on the river. If you were the villain, which situation would you prefer?
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