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Value owning in shallowspots/ bad RI play

SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
edited April 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This is a 2/5 uncapped private game. Villan is a talkitive young newbie who discusses every hand with everybody. He is spewy and a payoff wizard.
Hero is the host of the game and enjoyes a solid winnig image, respect and is viewed as a legend. Didn't loose a pot that evening and covers everyone.
Hero opened UTG with AKo to 20. villan cold calls otb. He's been cold calling the whole night with anytwo. Flop is J93 :r: .
Hero Cbets 40 into 47 and gets called. TU is the K:c: bringing in BD clubdraw. Hero bets 100 into 127. villan hasitates and calls. RI is the A:c: completing the clubFD. Hero shoves and villan tanks for 5min. Saying I know you got me with that flush again! But calls with his last 260 and shows QT for the broadway. The guy is a calling station but since he got a lot of respect for hero tries to open up his eyes and tighten up his postflop continiuing range so maybe hero cant valuebet that thin(Top two pair) because of that stronger range. Since hero playing on autopilot, villan is focusing on playbg his Agame and A-range against the A-opponent. Is that an image problem? Or should I check/fold the Tu or RI??


  • NutsUppercutNutsUppercut Posts: 146Subscriber
    You played it right, just ran into the top end of his range. He's not folding, A9, K9, J9.
  • DefacistDefacist Posts: 131Member
    I don't think the turn bet is bad at all. But this guy is passive and scared of you, so his call of a sizable bet on the turn seems to indicate strength. That puts you in kind of a tough spot on the river. Maybe check? There's a chance he'll check behind and give you a free showdown. You'll be kicking yourself when he turns over weaker two pairs, but he also could be passive enough to check behind with straights and sets; there's obvious flush and straight cards out there and if your image is as godlike as you say, he's going to be scared. I love checking the river with a fairly strong hand and seeing someone check behind and turn over something that has me crushed. It means I have a big psychological edge over them and I'm winning theoretical money.

    He could also make a small bet on the river that you could call. Fishy guys who aren't thinking about pot or bet size might make like a $50 bet here, which you could easily call. He could also shove, in which case I think you can fold.

    Another option is to make the small, fishy bet yourself. Non-thinking players might not realize how stupid-looking a $50 bet is in that spot. He might call with a lot of stuff that you beat. If he raises all-in for $210 more, I think you can fold because he's almost always got you beat. The small river bet is kind of a crazy option that would not be wise against good players, but it might be viable against this guy, given your image.
    Thanked by 1Shark
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Weird variance. I wouldn't be concerned at all. You don't even post this hand if he had KJ and you scooped the whole pot. :)
    Thanked by 1Shark
  • DefacistDefacist Posts: 131Member
    edited April 2014
    napncrash wrote:
    Weird variance. I wouldn't be concerned at all. You don't even post this hand if he had KJ and you scooped the whole pot. :)

    I guess I might be too passive in this spot, but I don't think it's an auto-shove on the river. Nevermind the odds Villain is getting on a call; that is likely not part of his thinking. All Villain is thinking is that the absolute value of the money is pretty high and he's being put to a decision for all of his remaining chips on a scary board (three Broadway cards and a three-flush) against a guy who seems to always have it. He may very well fold a lot of hands that we beat. One-pair hands can probably be ruled out of his calling range on the river. Maybe even some weak two-pair holdings can be discounted. Sure, he'll show up with J9 pretty often, and he will call with big two-pair hands, but combos that include an A or K become less likely with two of each in play. I think his calling range here skews toward hands that beat us: slowplayed sets, flushes (his turn call could have very well been gutshot+flush draw or pair+flush draw), or a maybe a slowplayed straight (which is what he had). I'm not saying a shove is ludicrous here by any means, I just wouldn't feel too sure about it. Maybe I'm a nit. :lol:
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    Maybe not an autoshove, but I don't mind it at all.

    This is a 50/50 spot. Meaning, are you good half the time if you're called here.

    The river card is out and the pot is either yours or not.

    1) You're not betting as a bluff. You're not expecting him to fold better hands.
    2) So do you feel, if called, you're ahead more than 50% of the time? Are there more than half the cards in his range that could call you that you beat?

    There's very few backdoor flushes here... the two most common flush cards (Ac, Kc) came on the river and turn, so all of those combos are out. So how many other pocket flush cards were able to get there by the river? Not many.

    Sets. I imagine a set finds a raise somewhere on the flop or the turn.

    Two pair. This is very likely, I think. J9, K9, KJ, AJ, AK for a chop, even. With your AK and the AK on the board, the amount of AK he could have are very few, but you'd rather be betting on a chop than calling on a chop.

    QT, totally in the wheelhouse of his range here.

    What about KQ? Very possible. QJ? Possible. Does he call the river? Probably not, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get value.

    So I haven't added up all the combos here, but I hope I've shown that there are plenty of hands to attack for value here. You got called. You got value cut/value owned. It's ok. In my very very humble opinion, this is a prime spot to value own yourself. With some more work we could add up all the combos, but the hands that beat you that make the most sense are the combos of QT... and it seems you beat a wide range of hands worse than that.

    Value own yourself here and be proud. How much would you hate to check and have him check behind any hand you beat? THAT'S VALUE and that's your goal.

  • DrGambolDrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    Not sure where to start but I guess I'll start with what is your UTG range?

    Secondly, does this cbet size make sense with your range and with this board texture against a cold caller. If he's known for calling down a lot, why are we betting so large? Won't a smaller bet give us a better price to bluff? Or are you doing this with your whole range which is just so value heavy that AK fits into a psb bluff?

    Thirdly, what is your range for betting this river? Once again, it depends on your pf range, but why does top two not fit into it? Is your range just that tight?

    So from a theory standpoint, I like 3 barreling, although I don't like the sizing otf. But from the perspective of why you're posting this, I think you may just be trying own everyone at the table too much. If he had AJ or A9, you probably aren't posting this. He just happened to have the effective nuts (and tried to make a crazy fold despite how rare it is for you to have a backdoor flush raising utg). Just make sure you're concentrating on the right things and aren't being too results orientated.
  • SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
    I like potsize Cbets against loosy goosy flop peelers. I think they should get punished to the limit for that. It allows me to get maxvalue on the flop those times I happen to have TP/over pair/ i hit later.
    Its a general problem how to play against sticky live peelers. Better not openning offsuit broadwaycards or barrel them to death and make them pay their entire stack to get to showdown with a buttom pair?
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    If you have sticky live peelers, then you have a couple of options

    1) Some will peel light on the flop but give up on turns. This is good when you have nothing. You can make them pay more on the flop and then barrel them off the turn.

    2) Some will continue to peel light on the turn. Don't try to barrel this person. Know your opponents as well as you can. If it's a home game, then you probably already know their tendencies. At a new game, pat attention and see how sticky they actually are. Lots of guys are sticky on the flop but bail quickly after the second barrel. That cbet, call, 2barrel, fold situation is very profitable.

    3) If they're truly super sticky and will call all the way down with any weak pair, then your job is to chill and wait until you have ANYTHING and then bet, bet, bet. Your variance will be high against this player, but you'll show a big profit in the long run. Bomb bomb bomb any pair above bottom pair and make sure you're playing preflop ranges are classically good. This is not a hard game if the guys are that sticky. Get a pair+ and bet fold for value again and again and again and again and again until they adjust.

    Regarding your cbet sizing: in this hand, are you betting for value or as a bluff?

    Thanked by 1Shark
  • SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
    I was valuebetting my overcards and my utgrange and bluffing against small pairs
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Will this sticky dude fold underpairs?

    PS: I'm lol at my phone auto correcting to "fold underpants."
  • SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
    I cbet because i cant CF my utg opening-range. And because I would have a lot of AA KK QQ JJ AJ AQ TT in that range which I would bet.
  • electricsheepelectricsheep Posts: 169Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    Rad_shark wrote:
    I like potsize Cbets against loosy goosy flop peelers. I think they should get punished to the limit for that. It allows me to get maxvalue on the flop those times I happen to have TP/over pair/ i hit later.

    I think this is a leak and you aren't really balancing the right way (though you shouldn't really balance at all against that player type).

    The fact is that you will show up more often with air in that spot and as a result, the "loosy goosy flop peelers" are playing against you correctly whenever you pot it on the flop.
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    A few things:

    1) You don't have to check fold. You can check call. You could check raise. Auto-cbetting is probably not your best strategy.
    2) If they're super loose, there's no need to worry about betting your "utg range." They don't seem to care, so why should you! ha. You can check fold, check call... or cbet smaller since you actually could be betting for value.
    3) If you're going to cbet, cbet bluffing smaller is better if he's calling at the same rate regardless of sizing. If you miss the flop and he has bottom pair, you haven't punished him with a big bet- you've rewarded him. We don't want to reward our opponents - we want to destroy them. Friendly destruction, of course.
    4) When you HIT a flop, now is the time to bump up your sizing since he's calling wtih the same rate anyway. You lose less on your misses and you make more on your hits.

    I have a very similar player in my home game. He gave me fits for years. But now I completely own him... and sometimes that includes check folding when you miss. It doesn't seem he cares that you've raised UTG... he doesn't take into account that that range might be stronger. He calls with XX because he's looking to "bust you." My guy will jokingly say that... "I'm going to bust him with this hand." Or he'll make an obviously bad preflop call and he'll say, "Ok, I'll be your huckleberry..." He's aware of his looseness and prides himself on it even though he's a mega loser in the game (over YEARS). He would much rather bust you with a shitty hand than actually profit long term playing decent poker.

    So maybe your guy is like this. If so, don't stress yourself over how to beat him. Bluff less, bluff smaller, bluff fewer streets; value bet more, value bet bigger, value bet more streets.

    If he's calling so light, punishing him comes in the form of value bets, not bluffs.

    There's a whole side category of setting up bluffs on the river vs. this guy's super wide range (pyramid, if you've read Ed Miller's 1%). He's likely to call more bluffs early but fewer bluffs late because he has soooo many damn hands that can't stand up by the river with no cards to come - no more chance - no more gamble - so you can set them up to blow them off rivers. But that's a separate conversation.
    Thanked by 1Shark
  • SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
    Great great discussion. than you all for those helpful posts.
  • SharkShark Posts: 108Subscriber
    Is it right to 3 barrel off those loosy goosy players every time they make those gay peel offs?
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Depends on board texture. The more draw heavy the board, the more likely it is that they have a draw... hence, the more likely they brick the river and would fold.

    But I wouldn't 3 barrel a very loose guy after he calls a K72r board. He peels with a pocket pair or something thinking you're bluffing.. then convinces himself on the turn and river that you're still bluffing.. and accidentally makes great calls because you 3 barreled him. Oops, you made him a genius... and that's infuriating. It's ok to give up against that guy. THAT'S GOOD POKERZ. Then value bet his tits off when you have any decent hand. Turn the genius into a fool when you get 3 big streets of value.
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