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Basic Preflop Spots

RyaninDCRyaninDC Posts: 31Member
I'm still learning the game, so these are probably very basic situations (given stack sizes). Still, wanted to run it by folks to make sure I'm not making errors in these quasi-short stacking kind of spots.

And maybe the more general question is, when do you simply over call with a hand (or what types of hands) in similar spots vs. shipping it in when relatively shallow?

$2/$2 blinds

Hand 1:
Hero ($165 and everyone covers) opens EP with JdTs9d7h to $8. MP calls, HJ raises to 35 and gets cold called by CO, BT, SB and BB. Hero shoves...

Hand 2:
Hero ($150 and everyone covers) in MP with JcJdTc9s. $5 straddle is on. 3 limpers in front of me, I limp as do a couple folks behind. Straddle makes it $40 and gets 3 callers in front of me. Hero ships.


  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    hand 1 is extremely dependent on stack sizes. if everyone has roughly $165 then I would just flat, but if everyone else is really deep and you think HJ will re-ship for like $700 getting a ton of dead money is good so 4-bet

    hand 2, same comments but your hand is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy worse vs. a tight range. still an acceptable 3-bet spot though if you can expect the straddle guy to 4-bet
  • RyaninDCRyaninDC Posts: 31Member

    So the goal in these types of spots is really to setup a situation where all the callers are forced to fold their equity vs the theoretical true premium hand (HJ in hand 1, Straddle in hand 2) who we want to isolate us?

    That makes a lot of sense, if so.

    Originally, my thought process was something like "well, my equity here 5 (as an example) ways is probably better than 20% so I want to get as much of that in pre-flop as we can." I suppose that may not always be the case with these two hands, but people would almost never fold anything they called with the first time (if I don't get isolated) after it comes back around--and their holdings are usually not all that premium. Is that majorly flawed, or simply not as good as what you describe?
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    edited March 2014
    If no one's folding, then you're really just gambling while feeding equity to the guy with Aces. I picked some pretty generous ranges for your opponents here:

    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    207,870 trials (Randomized)
    JdTs9d7h 18.66%
    50% 17.98%
    35% 18.13%
    15% 19.40%
    5% 25.82%

    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    199,934 trials (Randomized)
    JcJdTc9s 19.88%
    50% 18.13%
    35% 18.22%
    15% 18.89%
    5% 24.88%
  • BradleyTBradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber, Professional
    One reason you might consider shoving these hands is when winning will give you a stack that's way over the max buy-in and there's one or more bad players with large stacks. Say max buy-in is $200 in your game and some horrible player(s) have $600-$1000 stacks you can take the 5-way all-in at a few dollars equity loss to try and get a covering stack.

    Another reason is when you can get any dead money in there. In my experience you have to know the players. In my PLO games there's a lot of players who are just never folding for any amount once they call the $8 or $35 and plenty of others that would call the $35 and fold to the $165 ship. Obviously I'm way happier shipping in the later case or when I know the other aggressor will probably re-ship so we get a heads up hand with all the other dead money in there.

    When these guys aren't folding then you just want to be the one in there with AA gobbling up all the excess equity.
  • RyaninDCRyaninDC Posts: 31Member
    Clearly I need to learn equity situations far better than I do.

    Thanks all.
  • jeffncjeffnc Posts: 57Member
    I like Aesah's eval, and Bradley brought up an "outside the box" point that we don't consider enough.

    Stack sizes related to shoving notwithstanding, I think you can consider just limping in hand 1 and calling a raise - makes for a better situation where you can see the flop and reevaluate, PLO being so flop dependent. Even with your stack size I still like just calling to see the flop.
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