Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

how honest would you be in this spot?

RogerHardyRogerHardy Posts: 794Subscriber
All

Cutting to the chase:

1-2 game in local casino tonight. The skinny is that the player 2 to my right and I get it all in on the flop. I had trip 8's, it (turns out) he had a flush draw. We did not show our cards right away on the flop. Turn came an ace, river completed the flush draw (3 diamonds). He didn't look confident, and as I am not one to wait around, I show my trips first. He looks sad, mumbled something (crap?), and open mucks his hand enough for me (and probably at least a few other players) to see A5 of diamonds. His first take and mine was he hit his ace on the turn which obviously doesn't beat trips. It takes me a second or 2 tops to process the following:

1. I know for sure he has A5 of diamonds, I'm 100% sure.
2. I double check the board and there are indeed 3 diamonds on the board and no pair, so he has the best hand, again I'm 100% sure.
3. I look back at his cards which are now face down and have just been put face down into the muck. (I don't know whether he turned them face down or the dealer did. When I saw his cards they were in his hand fairly open sideways on the way to be being mucked; the act of mucking took place while I was triple checking the board).
4. I now have the realization that by rule his hand is dead and the pot should be mine.

What would you do in this spot? I'll post what I did within 24 hours, kinda wanted to take a quick straw poll.

Roger

Comments

  • people need to know how to read their hand. if he flipped it up tabled it and then got mucked I would be honest. (if the dealer made a mistake) but since he looked and then mucked. I take the pot.
  • eselspieleselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    At a level where the $ is significant, I wouldn't say anything. Hand's dead, sh!t happens, move on. The only thing bringing it up is going to do is delay the game when the floor comes over and mostly likely makes a wrong ruling.

    At $1/2 or with people I play with regularly. I would point out the error and offer to just chop the pot.

    I was once on a cruise where there was an electronic poker table. I was playing short-handed against an older woman who won a slots jackpot on the first day. She was donating it back at the poker table, because she played poker like it was a slot machince. ;)

    One time she accidently hit the all-in button, and exclaimed that she had made a mistake and didn't mean to do that. I open folded AQ and said I 'm not going to try and take your money. I didn't want her to get upset and leave; of course I was taking it just through normal play. There were still a few days left on the cruise and I wanted her to keep playing.

    A few days later the same thing happened in reverse. I screwed up and accidently went all in and I said I didn't mean to do that. She snap calls with AQ again. I hit a pair and stacked her. That's karma. ;)
  • RogerHardyRogerHardy Posts: 794Subscriber
    Thanks for the input. My wife said the same thing as eselspiel - if it was for a million dollars, tough luck. But at 1-2, meh.

    So I told him he had the flush and he won, and the dealer was able to retrieve the cards and show it, so he scoops the pot. Ultimately I had to be able to sleep at night, and I felt better "doing the right thing" than trying to play the "angle".

    Again, I saw his cards 100% and knew they were in the bottom of the muck 100%. Had I not been 100% sure of either of those I probably wouldn't have said anything.

    The only thing I wasn't sure of was whether his cards hit the table face up or face down. Again, he basically flashed most of the table his cards before folding; while I was looking back the board to double check there was indeed a flush out there, by the time I looked back at his cards, the dealer was just putting them in the muck.

    When I first started playing at the Taj, they had a rule on their board that said "its every players responsibility to ensure the correct hand wins". I always liked that rule. I checked Parx's site for rules, can't find any (this happened at Parx). I did check Roberts Rules of poker:

    "Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."
  • BradleyTBradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber, Professional
    I wouldn't consider a flash a tabled hand so he's out of luck. If it had been a properly tabled hand that got mucked then yes he is entitled to the pot.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    I wouldn't say anything unless his hand was tabled face up.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    The rules are very clear here. if he tables the hand enough for the dealer to see the hand its live. If he shows you but doesnt table his hand and mucks. tough shit. It each players responsibility to read their own hands period. Thats why I have no shame looking at other players hands if they dont protect them.

    Wendy
  • grindblergrindbler Posts: 131Member
    knowing how to read your hand and the board is also part of the game...
    It's a game of mistakes, making them, and avoiding them both, on so many levels.
    If you give your opponent a freebie every time he makes a bad play, or expect one when you make a mistake, then quickly there is no game.
    I don't think it's 'dis-honest' to not say anything in the least either; it's not your job to read your opponents hand if he didn't expose it face up on the felt.
    Anyways, it was a dead hand the second it hit the muck (I'm assumung face down?)
    If he did table it face up, and no one besides yourself, not even the dealer saw he had the winner, then keeping quiet in that case would be dishonest imo.

    as played, i don't see the point in telling him he just mucked the nuts even.
    theres a maxim "let him who is deceived be deceived'

    In the case where someone exposes their hand to the table and has the winner but hasn't actually tabled it yet, it's actually an angle/ bad for the game for another player to read his hand for him, and say 'dude, you have the winner, table it face up'.
    Once I saw a guy at the Rio get all in with what he thought was trips, see his opponents trips with a better kicker at showdown, then expose his hand (a full house) to the table for sympathy, and then muck it when he was the only one at the table who didn't know what he had. Everyone at the table knew not to say anything, or to be 'honest', (which actually amounts to collusion in this spot).
    even after the hand, saying anything is just 'rubbing it in' in regards to their mistake...
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    contrary to online poker, reading your hand (and properly tabling your hand at showdown) is part of live poker. it is another area where people can and do make mistakes.

    you have no obligation to inform the player who made a mistake, and should not feel guilty for winning the pot. "honesty" is not part of the equation here.

    as soon as the player puts his cards face up on the table, the pot is rightly his.
  • napncrashnapncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Not my hand, not my problem.

    I would have no problem if he went and retrieved it realizing he had a hand... then I'm cool. But if he's not paying attention, that's his problem.
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    FWIW, I think it was very nice of you to tell him he won the hand and allowed him to scoop the pot. If itmakes you feel better that is really all that matters. Having said that, it is the player's responsibility to read and table their hand appropriately. I have mis read my hand on a couple of different occassions. I would have had the winner. When that happened, it was my loss - literally. I don't believe the stakes matter whatsoever. $1//2 or $1,000 / $2,000 it would be the same in a relative sense.

    Like I said, if you feel better about it then that is all that matters.
  • I'm sure you wouldn't feel bad if the villain misread his hand before the flop: say he thought he had Ad5d but he had Ah5h. If that was the case, you wouldn't chop the pot to be "nice" would you? No, it's up to the villain to 1) read his hand properly and 2) table it if he's uncertain (not throwing it to the muck). I wouldn't feel any guilt as once the cards hit the muck they're dead.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    Yeah, I agree with most that it's his responsibility to read his hand and table it properly. This is why I almost always table my hand, so I can't make that mistake.
  • I would never even consider telling an opponent how to read his hand. He is an opponent who is trying to take your money. He mucked, so you won. The pot is yours and there is nothing dishonest about that at all, whether it is $10 or $1,000,000 or $100,000,000.
Sign In or Register to comment.