Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Two hands with AKo

TomBayesTomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
My first post to this forum. This will have two hands from this weekend. It's a 1/2 NL game, buy-in $30-$300. Most regulars buy-in for $200 or $300 (I buy-in for $300 and typically top-off when I drop below $200), most non-regs buy-in for $100 or $200, occasionally people buy-in for the min or near min and those players are always terrible and never play a good short-stack strategy.

I'm a 43 year old white guy, generally quiet at the table, and a "semi-regular", in that the observant regulars know who I am and regard me as a tight, solid player. I probably have a similar image to someone like Wendy. The less observant regs never remember me.

Hand #1: AKo vs young Latino non-regular

Villain in this hand is a ~25 year old Latino male. I've never played with him before, but he seems to be buddies with gamb00ly LAG Asian regular. It's fairly early in my session and I'm in middle position. I have about $215 which is the effective stack for this hand. A couple of limpers, I raise to $15, villain calls in BB, both limpers also call.

Flop is K94, all clubs. I have the Ace of clubs. I c-bet $40, only the villain in BB calls. I have $160, just over a pot-sized bet left. The turn is another 4. Villain checks.

What do you do?

Hand #2: AKo vs Old Man Coffee reg

Villain in this hand is "Eddie". Eddie is about 75 and he & his wife are regulars. I've played with him for years. Eddie's from the same town as me and I've even played with him the few times I've played in a private raked game. He sees lots of flops and will peel the flop. He's better at bet sizing than most Old Man Coffee types, and usually has it if he puts a lot of money in the pot. I value-owned myself a few hands ago against him, as I tried a super thin value bet with 2nd pair/top kicker that was no good.

I start this hand with about $450; Eddie has about $350. Two limpers, I make it $15 from the cut-off, Eddie calls in BB, one limper calls & one limper folds.

Flop is KT3 w/two spades. I have no spades. Checked to me, I c-bet $30, Eddie calls, other guy folds.
Turn is an A (not spades). Eddie checks, I bet $60, Eddie check-raises all-in.

What do you do?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Tom

    Welcome!

    Hand #1. I would have bet more on the flop... You have most likely the best hand and for sure the best draw.. Pot is $60.. I would have bet closer to pot.. On the turn its still a bet.. but I might not fold unless I knew villain in the hand was a nit.. Two pair is tough with the exception of K9. what 4 could villain have? Kx is much more likely.. if Villain was very short I would probably just shove turn.. make it look bluffy..

    Hand #2 Eddie seems like a classic "bluff catcher" type of player.. more towards the stationy type.. I will value town these guys alot. If you have seen him fold to a good turn card I might double barrel but would lean more towards just sticking to value.. $45 in pot to flop I have top pair on wet board I bet close to pot..$40.. there are a lot of hands on this board that will call me.. QJ, KJ, any two spades..etc...

    Your bet sizing is small.. remember basic value betting.. if they can call with worse bet more.. they cant only call with better bet less or dont bet at all.. On the turn the pot is now.. $45+60+120=245 ..Eddie shoves for $350-15-30-60=245.. this is a pot size raise.. I am probably calling .. that said you have played with this guy a long time... You would/should know how he acts when he is trying to "protect" against a flush draw.. Does he do this with a set? Two pair? top pair? straight? The more nutty he does this with that you have seen the more likely I would fold. This is highly read dependent against this specific villain..

    Wendy
  • MikeMike Posts: 371Member
    hand 1 get it in. If hes real good buddies with a gambler type player generally they play the same style. You will have the best hand more often than not and you can always fall back on the A if you need to. You cant ever fold on the turn with these stack sizes i dont think. As for your bet sizing on the flop i think its fine. Generally for the lower limits you wanna stay a little under specific numbers that scare people. 50/100 and every increment of 100 thereafter. I guess you could bet 45 but i dont think it matter much.

    Hand 2 it really depends on how the villian is gonna play against you. Because you know each other and have played a ton with each other i know a lot of people who will make huge bets only when they have the nuts to "show" you that they have the best hand and to fold because they are being nice. You dont have to have an agreement with these people they just assume that you will reciprocate.

    I think folding is probably the right play here since there really isnt any hands that you beat that would take this action. With a FD on the board he is going to be raising the flop with KT. Guys this old wont be semi bluffing with big hands ever so he seems to have it made here. I wouldnt be surprised if he showed up with QJss almost 100% of the time in this spot.

    The only hand i see that you beat still is whatever combo of Axs he could have. But even then id almost expect a call most of the time and have him try and hit.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    Hand 1: This is an awkward spot. I re-typed this response twice, haha. I reflexively thought "bet!" but I'm not sure now. I don't think the 4 actually changes anything because I don't think they have two pair or a set on this flop that's turned into a boat, given their action on the flop. People with those hands on that flop want the hand over immediately.

    You've got top pair with the nut-flush draw. I don't think you can bet with a decent size and then fold if you're shoved on here on the turn, so you're either shoving or you're checking it through. The upside of betting (shoving) is that I think you can get called by KQo with the Q of clubs, or maybe even Q9o with the Q of clubs. If they don't have a made flush, you've almost certainly got the best hand. If they do have a made flush, I think you would have heard from them.

    Checking it through might be seen as a license to bluff the river and you might have to make a thin call, but likely he's checking the river to you and I think you can bet $75 - $90 and fold to a shove. You're never getting shoved on by worse so don't consider bet/calling. Keep the remainder and add on to your stack for the next hand.

    Hand 2: EDIT: I totally brain-farted on this and missed that he could easily have QJ here. That makes this a bit of a gross fold, I think. Another strange possibility is him having AKss (you're free-rolling him if the T3 are spades) but he's probably raising you out of the blinds with that pre-flop.
  • ChristopherSigmanChristopherSigman Posts: 1,147Subscriber
    StopHammertime said

    You've got top pair with the nut-flush draw. I don't think you can bet with a decent size and then fold if you're shoved on here on the turn, so you're either shoving or you're checking it through. The upside of betting (shoving) is that I think you can get called by KQo with the Q of clubs, or maybe even Q9o with the Q of clubs. If they don't have a made flush, you've almost certainly got the best hand. If they do have a made flush, I think you would have heard from them.

    Checking it through might be seen as a license to bluff the river and you might have to make a thin call, but likely he's checking the river to you and I think you can bet $75 - $90 and fold to a shove. You're never getting shoved on by worse so don't consider bet/calling. Keep the remainder and add on to your stack for the next hand.
    Hammertime,

    I don't get why you have to shove the turn if you're not going to bet/fold. Can't you bet normal to INDUCE hands like KQ and Q9 with the Q of clubs to ship (lol pair and flush draw, c/r all-in, gambol, gambol, lolz) and then call off?
  • shmedshmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    On hand 1: I would size my turn and river bets to get AI for value by the river. I am with reed, not sure why you would need to ship here unless you specifically think it increases your chance of being paid off by this villain per Wendy's thinking. The villain has shown no aggression in this hand indicating a better hand (and you have outs if you do), so I am betting for value unless something changes that makes me feel strongly otherwise. Also the A and Ks being out there eliminates many suited hands he would play, and the 4 is likely only a small part of his calling range.

    On hand 2: Tough spot and the overbet adds more suspicion. But I would fold based on your read that he usually has it on big bets. QJ, AT, A3s are all all plausible holdings from the way he played it. And he could have slowplayed something bigger (e.g. sets) on the flop, but realized after you bet on the turn that the board was super dangerous for him and wanted to take it now. But agree with Wendy -- it really depends on your read.

    Fun descriptions of your fellow players!
  • TomBayesTomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    Hi, thanks for the responses. Unlike 2p2, no one was snarky!

    On the flop, the K3 were spades and the T was not.

    I didn't give him AA or KK for his range-he'd probably 3-bet those preflop, especially with the limpers still around. He'd flat with smaller pairs (even small ones), AK (he doesn't 3-bet AK), and other broadway hands.

    I doubt he'd check-raise all-in without a very big hand. AT is about the only suited spades hand I'd expect. Past experience is when Villain puts it all-in and I (or someone else) has called, Villain almost always wins. I've seen him make moves in smaller pots when weakness is shown, but not in a situation like this hand, where I've bet every step of the way.

    I felt that he had probably put me on something like AA/KK/AK and wouldn't be able to find a fold. I did fold and he did not show. I think QJ was his most likely holding.

    Board: Ks Th 3s Ad
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 17.593% 10.19% 07.41% 121 88.00 { AcKh }
    Hand 1: 82.407% 75.00% 07.41% 891 88.00 { TT, 33, AKs, AsTs, QJs, AKo, QJo }
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    With respect to hand #1, even though the stack sizes are "by the book" perfect for a turn shove (SPR of 1), this is 1/2, and that size of a bet will only be called by better and worse will always fold. People at a 1/2 table don't think that its a PSB and only think about "ZOMG it's $160!!". I actually like taking a bit of a different line then Wendy here. I would probably only bet $30 on the flop. You get the same information from your opponent by betting 1/2 pot as you would 2/3 or full pot. Sets, made flushes and two pair should be raising here with the scary board (and we can then safely fold), and dominated draws and weaker Kings will always call. This way, after the flop bet is called, pot is $60+30+30 = $120 and you have $170. It's still a bit awkward (tough to avoid with the effective stacks the way they are), but it does allow you to bet/fold the turn. I would bet $55-65 on the turn (you still want to keep in dominated draws) when the board pairs and fold to a ship. If Villian just calls again I ship basically all rivers.

    With respect to hand #2, snap fold. In my experience, Old Man Coffee types are not getting it in without basically the mortal nuts. Again, this is 1/2, so thinking about it from the perspective of your average player, it's not a PSB (even though it is), its $250. That's a huge bet at 1/2, and unless stack are 500BBs+, this is never done with worse than a set, and even then most of the really good 1/2 players recognize that you're never getting called by worse when you stick that much money in the pot no matter how deep stacks are. The check raise AI on the turn is also indicative of the nuts like 100% of the time. Granted, you seem to have somewhat of a history, but this to me is a really quick lay down.

    EDIT: I guess what I'm saying (in a really long winded way), is that while the bet sizing (in relation to the pot) matters to us, it's not a concern for the majority of players that I play against (I am a 1/2 and 2/5 player). All they see is the absolute dollar value of the bets that they are calling, and all they think about when betting is nuts = big bet, non nuts = smaller bet.
  • TomBayesTomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    On Hand 1, I chose to shove the turn. Villain snap-called with J6cc for the flopped flush, but I rivered a K to make a full house. Villain rebought and spewed to other people.
    Mike said
    Hand 2 it really depends on how the villian is gonna play against you. Because you know each other and have played a ton with each other i know a lot of people who will make huge bets only when they have the nuts to "show" you that they have the best hand and to fold because they are being nice. You dont have to have an agreement with these people they just assume that you will reciprocate.
    As I said, I did fold this hand. Your comment about people making huge bets with just the nuts against people they know reminded me of a hand I played about 4 years ago. I come from an online tournament background and learned much of the game through books/2+2/RGP. The villain in this hand is a guy about my age who works at the same university as I, but had been playing live cash much longer than I, rarely ever played online, and plays a more "old-school live" style.

    It was a 2/5 NL game, effective stacks were about $500. Since it's been several years, I don't recall the exact action, but I had 99, the flop came T97 rainbow, and we got all-in on the flop, with V making a 4-bet shove that I called. He had flopped the nut straight, I rivered a boat and he was super pissed. He kept saying "You KNOW the all-in bet is ONLY THE NUTZ!" and insinuating that I had broken some sort of unwritten code.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Speaking of shoving nuts... It always amazes me how often this happens because they are so frightened about getting a bad beat.. Getting almost no value on their nutty hands unless someone has a hand that can beat them.. and of course they ONLY remember the hands they did lose these all ins too. I remember myself that way not too long ago..

    On a side note probabaly the worst scenario similar to above was seeing a local grinder at Aria get it all in on a limped pot for 1000 effective in a 2/5 NL game against a rec player..

    Flop was J79 and the action was limped 5 or 6 ways.. one guy bets this flop and rec player insta shoves all in with only like 40 bucks in the pot.. Reg snap calls.. rec player fills up on river against nut straight..lol.. snap all in for 1k with 40 bucks in the pot.. that was like a year ago.. boy I miss those days.. Reg got up and left having as Bart/Limon would say got his "nut" cracked..not Aces but same hand equivalent..

    Laugh

    Wendy
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    reedmylips said
    StopHammertime said

    You've got top pair with the nut-flush draw. I don't think you can bet with a decent size and then fold if you're shoved on here on the turn, so you're either shoving or you're checking it through. The upside of betting (shoving) is that I think you can get called by KQo with the Q of clubs, or maybe even Q9o with the Q of clubs. If they don't have a made flush, you've almost certainly got the best hand. If they do have a made flush, I think you would have heard from them.

    Checking it through might be seen as a license to bluff the river and you might have to make a thin call, but likely he's checking the river to you and I think you can bet $75 - $90 and fold to a shove. You're never getting shoved on by worse so don't consider bet/calling. Keep the remainder and add on to your stack for the next hand.
    Hammertime,

    I don't get why you have to shove the turn if you're not going to bet/fold. Can't you bet normal to INDUCE hands like KQ and Q9 with the Q of clubs to ship (lol pair and flush draw, c/r all-in, gambol, gambol, lolz) and then call off?
    I considered that but I didn't think it would leave enough behind for the Villain to think we could ever fold. But sure, I think that's fine if our understanding of the player is that they see us as someone who folds to a ship.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    Tom Bayes said
    It was a 2/5 NL game, effective stacks were about $500. Since it's been several years, I don't recall the exact action, but I had 99, the flop came T97 rainbow, and we got all-in on the flop, with V making a 4-bet shove that I called. He had flopped the nut straight, I rivered a boat and he was super pissed. He kept saying "You KNOW the all-in bet is ONLY THE NUTZ!" and insinuating that I had broken some sort of unwritten code.
    Hahaha, is the unwritten code "Don't get your money in bad against me with a hand that still has outs?"
  • grindblergrindbler Posts: 131Member
    1] if we are betting the flop to build the pot up in order to get all in, then shoving the turn just makes sense,|
    w/ these stack sizes it's fine and you get looked up by worse hands/ worse draws a lot.
    theres way more value to be had from playing it aggressively than there is to lose from coolers to flopped flushes/ sets, ect... that we still have equity against anyways...

    2] from your description, it looks like he's got it (QJ; he's not doing this with aces up), and theres enough $ still behind to let it go.
    sure top 2 is a big hand but considering relative values, it really amounts to another good (but not good enough) hand, and is drawing thin.
    If you feel like this opponent plays that face up, that he's only capable of doing this w/ the nuts (very common at this level), then you exploit it by making big, yet safe folds?
Sign In or Register to comment.