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Sizing With Top 2 as Pre-Flop 3-bettor.

joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Posts: 165Subscriber
edited November 2020 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
7 handed 1/2 $300 cap. $650 effective with main Villain, other Villain has between 200-250 to start the hand. Main Villain is in his 50's and apparently plays a lot, (mentioned several tournaments) but I am not impressed by his play. He's not an idiot, but loves to see flops and he will call small/reasonable flop/turn bets with any pair/any draw. If lots of money starts going in he's got a value hand. Villain 2 is African American man in his 30's, seems like a pretty typical rec.

UTG opens to $7, LJ (MV), HJ, and CO (V2) call $7, Hero 3! to $50 with A Q, LJ and CO call.

Flop (3 players, $164) A Q 5 Checks to me, I bet $50, both players call.

Turn (3 players, $314) 7 Checks to me, I bet $150, LJ calls, CO folds.

River (2 players, $614) K V checks (about $400 behind), I check, V turns over 9 8 for flush.

After thinking this one through, I don't think I like my sizing on flop or turn. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,258Member
    edited November 2020
    Wont get into pre much, you must have good reasons to 3B AQo.vs an UTG open.
    I’d bet around 65%+ OTF at these stakes, Not sure why you’re betting turn when you got called in two spots and the turn completes the front door flush.
    River was played perfect.
  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Your supposed to check this turn like all the time. Take a free card to hope you boat up. On the river you call a small bet and fold to any all- in bets.

    Personally on the flop I size down. Draws aren't folding on the flop anyway so you might as well price both of them in. Especially since a lot of players have trouble calculating equity multi-way and treat it as heads up. I normally go quarter to third pot on the flop and blast all turns (that don't complete draws) with a bet big enough to make draw calls bad equity.

    Again checking the turn is the play imo. I think I'm checking my entire range on the turn here. I'm checking the times I bet a draw and just hit to balance out the times that this card was an action killer.

  • Steveo76Steveo76 Posts: 218Subscriber

    I like a bigger bet on the flop. $90 feels about right. Plenty of hands will call that. If villains are holding a flush draw they will be doing cartwheels at only having to pay $50 to see another card.

    I think this downbetting flops strategy is getting misapplied at times. This scenario doesn't call for it IMO. Get the value while your opponents still like their hands.

    On the turn I would just check back and look to get another street of value on the river if checked to again. There is a good chance one of your opponents is on the diamond draw when you are blocking top and middle pair. I don't see any worse made hands calling your $150 bet apart from exactly As7s or As5s, and the latter would most likely have raised you on the flop.

  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Steve- I agree that there aren't many hands calling that he is beating, so they are either ahead or drawing and diamonds being the obvious draw and maybe like K♧J♧ calls with a gut shot and backdoor draw.

    From working situations through solvers and then trying to figure them out, I believe they want the 1/4 and 1/3 size pot bets on the flop to a. price draws in (and protect your loss), and b. to keep someone in the hand so they make a mistake (like you flop a set on a T high board and the V has Ax with backdoor. Some people will hit that A or say Q and think they just made a better hand.)

    So if your betting the flop larger, what is the reason behind it? To build the pot? Or is it to force a hand out? If you want to force the flush draw out of the hand (or make it unprofitable to call) you have to damn near bet 2x pot with 2 cards to come. So your never really betting a price to get the flush draw to fold, so your better off laying a price to build the pot and hope to avoid the ◇ for 1 Street where the equity is cut in half.

    The other reason I think you bet smaller is to save money and to get blown off your hand less.. For example as played our Hero has $100 invested in this hand when the flush hits. If he checks the turn, on the river the Villain probably bets the same $150 our hero bet. He can now call as he is getting 3 to 1 on his money and only has to be good 1 out of every 4 times he makes this call. So he is either out $100 or $250. If he sizes up to $100, he is out the extra $50 there and the price to call on the river is $225 or so. In this scenario he is out the extra $50 with a fold and an extra $125 with a call.

    Again thats just my opinion and I love to discuss this stuff. When I ask why bet larger it isn't to be a dick, I just really like to hear your thoughts of why. (I actually do see a hole in my theory of betting smaller, but I'm 90% sure the solver will favor the smaller vet as well.)

  • Steveo76Steveo76 Posts: 218Subscriber

    Nate - I also love a bit of to and fro on the merits of different lines. If we all just agree the whole time I don't think we grow too much.

    So the reason I'm betting bigger on this flop is not to fold hands out, it's to maximise value before a turn card falls that kills my action.

    Let's say we knew the exact holdings of our two opponents. One has an ace and the other has a flush draw. If both will pay $100 to see another card, why only charge them $50? You've missed out on $100 of value straight away. The other function of building the pot bigger on the flop is that you get to bet bigger on the turn if a blank comes instead of the diamond, potentially getting even more value.

    I see your point about losing less the times when we get outdrawn, but I prefer to cater my play to the most likely outcome which is that our hand holds up. So 2/3 of the time we can make X amount more $$$ with my line and 1/3 of the time we will lose the same amount (as long as we don't pay off on the river). Doesn't this make the line +Ev?

    I agree that in many situations a 1/3 size (or sometimes even less) is appropriate, but I think it would be a mistake to apply a 'one size fits all' approach.

    Can you put this hand through the solver Nate? I'd be really interested to see what it favours.

    Cheers!

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Posts: 165Subscriber
    Thanks for the responses so far.

    @Letmewin1 Yes, I do have my reasons to 3! AQo vs. a UTG open. I can't take a $7 open seriously seriously from anyone in this game. I had seen same villain raise to $7 previously from MP with A7o, and to $10 at various other times. There are 3 callers in the middle, none of whom are expected to have super-premium hands. Further, there isn't much 3-betting in this game, so it tends to get a lot respect and set me up to win the pot without having to hit my hand.

    @N8Ball02 Against competent opponents, I can see checking most of the time, but that's not what I'm dealing with here. I don't have to worry about someone taking the naked A and turn their pair of aces into a semi-bluff. It's just not going to happen, so I can continue to bet-fold my value and barrel some bluffs. Had I bet larger on the flop where flush draws would make a larger percentage of the continuing range, then I like a check on the turn.

    @Steveo76 This flop sizing was more in line with what I was thinking. I've kind of gotten into the habit of c-betting 1/3 with my entire range as the preflop 3-bettor and it has been working quite nicely. By going small, I do think I keep some broadway draws in, but you're absolutely right that flush draws and Aces are going to continue to larger sizing as well. I also agree that the turn sizing is too large, though I do think A X will still come along some of the time. I don't think it's an auto-check back based on my flop sizing though, since both Villains can be fairly wide and now a single diamond has nearly 20% equity against me.
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,258Member
    I think the concept of a smaller sizing as the PF3B is misapplied in live small stakes games, trying to play that strategy vs inelastic players will lose you ev in the long run.
    Another point on this subject, solvers do not take into account 3B pots and multi-way pots.
    The way to make money in small stakes is exploit, you exploit by betting larger for value as this hand is the perfect example, they’re always calling with any Ax pre and will always continue post when flopping top pair and no one or very few will count pot odds with their draws and that’s why betting 1/3 isn’t recommended in multi way pots in live games.
    Good luck!
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