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$5/$10 tough spot

This is a $5/$10 $5k cap.

Hero just sat down and folded a hand while getting situated and get A◇A♤ on my 2nd hand.

Hero($5000)- UTG limps in casually while setting up my chips. HJ opens to $35. Villain is on the button and 3 bets to $125. Hero 4 bets to $500. HJ gets out the way and the villain flats immediately.

Even though I just sat at this table, this villain is a fishy LAG. He is loose and aggressive but he never really thinks about what he is doing. He kind of just clicks buttons and the last time we played he made a huge bluff against another guy with rags and showed it, and when I asked him about it later he said he came into the hand just to bluff that dude out. Also he tells people his name if Freddy 5 bet (though he passed on the oppurtunity.) Anyway back to the hand.

Flop($1050)- T♤ 6♡ 2♤.

I size down and bet $250. He calls.

Turn($1550)- 2◇.

At this point is very obvious he also has an overpair and while it doesn't really matter that 2 pairing the board takes away any 2nd pair he could hit with the minute chance he called with Tx. So I shoot out $750. He goes into the tank for a long time and makes the call.

River($3050)- J♡.

So I always watch the villain and not the board when the dealer turns the cards over. When the card hit the board his face lit up and he turns to me eagerly awaiting my bet. When I see this I know he just hit something. I thought he had KK up until this point. Now I'm pretty sure he has JJ but this dude could easily still be beat because he never worries about his opponents hand strength.

What do you guys do right here?


  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    I will tell you that I made an action and then he shoves all-in which is the tougher spot.

    Will finish the hand after comments. Don't want to give it away.

  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,258Member
    How much did Freddy start the hand with?
  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Letmewin1- Sorry, but he has me covered, actually by a lot of chips. So he must have been having a nice hand before this.

  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,258Member
    Well theoretically it isn’t recommended to to play a 1,000BB pot with one pair.
  • SFGiantsSFGiants Posts: 565Subscriber
    I don't understand the problem. If you have a read as specific as you suggest, the only play is to check evaluate.
  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Garland- There was no problem, just opening a discussion to see what others would do. Yes I checked and he shoved.

    I guess I'm kind of curious as to if my read is not as good as I think, did I just cost myself or was this about to be a shove regardless if I checked or bet. Basically did I cost myself money or save myself money.

  • JKHJKH Posts: 845Subscriber, Professional
    edited December 2020

    Against an average opponent my standard line is to bet the river and make a decision if raised. If I picked up an exploitative live tell like u stated u have I like the check and when he shoves it gets hard. He shoves 3500 into 3000. Being that he is capable of bluffing mdf says u need 46% of the time. So according to game theory this is a call...so this would be an exploitative fold....in this spot I think it depends if the guy is smart and good or an idiot who clicks buttons. By your description I think the leveling war breaks down as follows

    ....if he is good and intelligent...he will know that u saw and talked about the big bluff he made prior and be more opt to have it this time

    also if he is intelligent he will be less likly to be bluffing u here b/c u asked him about a similar spot yesterday

    if he is bad and a bit of an unintelligent button clicker ....the conversation he had with u yesterday will not register and he will not adjust and still be repeating prior patterns and have careless bluffs in his range....

    By the way u described everything ...I think u can make a pretty exploitable fold. But if he is an idiot .....paying him off is fine imo

  • Steveo76Steveo76 Posts: 218Subscriber

    If he is someone that doesn't worry too much about his opponent's hand strength, can't he have QQ or KK on the river and think he's good?

    Also, why can't he have a busted flush draw? Just because you hold the As? I wouldn't be so quick to narrow his range down to overpairs when he calls you on the flop, particularly given your description of him.

    Regarding the river action, is it possible that Villain could sense you were watching his reaction and hammed it up? I also watch the player and a couple of times Villains have tried to take advantage when I've not been subtle enough.

    I think I would have bet anyway in your spot (say £1000) and folded to a raise which confirms my read.

    Tough spot indeed!

  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Steve- your right I shouldn't narrow his range as quickly as I did, In the moment I mistakenly thought he 4 bet someone and I 5 bet, but UTG limped in and didn't open with a raise. I get people all the time you try to fake react but they are normally too obvious, if this dude was faking he was very good at it as it was like .1 of a second.

    Anyway I go into the tank and replay the hand (this is when I realized UTG limped in), but I never gave the villain a chance to react to his hand naturally, at this point all he did was call me down and when I check the river he bets just as I suspected, just to a bigger amount. He also wasn't very aggressive, he just called a 4 bet, which with how he brags about 5 betting he should have blasted an overpair.

    As JKH said, I also replayed the conversation we just had about him bluffing with rags and I went into a wormhole inside of my head thinking did he remember that and shove for value thinking I will call because of that conversation. I would make that play possibly.

    I also went through the hand from his perspective and went over big spots that he has seen me in. I remembered a hand where I double barreled with 99 with a T on the board and check called the river.

    When I took into account that his shove was barely an overbet, and the odds I was getting, I think this is a call. Also if I lay down AA here because some dude might have hit a set then I can be exploited in the future, so I make the call.

    He turns over Q♤J♤ very confidently.

  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 131Subscriber
    edited December 2020
    Without taking into account any reads (against a rando player), without the ace of spades this is a pretty easy call. With the ace of spades, I think it's more iffy but I still don't think it's particularly close. It's hard for him to have a busted draw on this board. Like, I would assume he isn't turning a pair into a bluff. So he can have KQss, 98ss, 87ss. That's about it. Maybe he can have a hand like 98hh, where he is planning to turn his hand into a bluff on any spade. Anyway, there are very limited number of bluffs. However, there is also a very limited amount of value. We're only losing to JJ and TT, which basically all play this way. That's just 6 combos. As I mentioned, it's easy to find 3 combos of bluffs. So I really don't think we can fold AA here, even with the spade.

    Now take into account that Villain could easily be playing all 6 combos of KK this way, and I think it's an easy call with AA. Probably we can fold a hand like QQ with a spade, or even ATs.

    Given reads that Villain is a button clicker, I don't think we can ever fold an overpair in this spot. So given that information I'm definitely calling here with all combos of QQ as well.
  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Chaos- Thanks for the comment. I pretty much agree with 100% of what you said. I had a slight thought of folding but never anything too serious. I have to make this call everytime or I am going to get bullied at this level, imo. I was going to say I could fold if I had the postle crotch cam going and know a guy set up on you, but even then you might want to call just to have hands you lose, lol.

    Someone said I shouldn't play 1 pair to get stacks in 500BB deep, but besides the fact thatbI technically have 2 pair, I disagree with that statement. When I have the range and nut advantage I want to try to get stacks in. Yes it sometimes leads to getting stacked, but a good amount of the time it leads to big pots. Getting stacked is just part of poker. Honestly if you have never been stacked before, you aren't doing something right.

    Also I think sometimes you have to step backward from game theory when you know your opponent is not thinking in these manners. This is a guy who predetermined he was going to bluff a guy out of a hand, so even if you can't find the bluffs, there is always the he wants to bluff and was just determined to do so. This is a lot more rare at $5/$10 than $2/$5 but its something to consider.

  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,258Member
    edited December 2020
    I’m the one that said that in theory stacking off with one pair 500BB deep is a mistake, and guess what I still think this way.
    You do not have nut advantage, the only nut hand you can possibly have here is 10’s and that is only if play it this way and it’s not the nuts, you also give V a specific hand that beats you but then you say he can be beat.
    Using terminology that you’ve heard off but do not understand will not make you look like a crusher....and it will cost you money because it’ll cloud your judgment.
    Yes you’ve gotten responses that you like but in live games once you get stacked with 1 pair at this stacked depth vs a villain that can adjust is not a good play nor will it ever be.
    You just couldn’t let go of AA, we’ve all been there we’ve all found a way to justify it based on a smoke screen just to make us sleep better with the results.
    Out of curiosity where did this hand take place ?

    I wasn’t the best at essays so please don’t judge my writing
  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Letmewin1- Basically the game shouldn't really be played 500BB deep, but it is at times. This game is played in a private poker club, which I can't mention by name for numerous reasons, one of which is there is a 10:00 pm curfew where I live and games go way past 10:00. (I actually don't think there is curfew where the club is but I'm not 100%). But if you are ever near Cincinnati we can exchange info or something and I can get you in the game.

    I 100% understand what both range and nut advantage is. I also never put people on 1 hand, but a range. When I say things like this dude has JJ, I mean the thought crossed my mind as it hit, but when I go to my head and think through the hand I never limit someone to 1 hand. Honestly I don't care what you think I understand or not, I'm comfortable with my knowledge and understanding of the game and just like to talk things out to sharpen the edges if you will. Also there isn't any need to be insulting, I wasn't insulting when I said I disagreed with your statement and I still 100% disagree with it. I'm not saying your a negative person, maybe you just wrote a negative post, but having a happy and positive outlook on life/poker/ or whatever normally leads to positive results. We can have a conversation and disagree without talking down to one another. Again that's just my outlook on life, send out positive vibes and get positivity in return.

    The reason I can't get on board with what your saying is because I don't think you believe it, at least not all the way. Lets say your playing $1/$2 and you have $1000 in front of you and get dealt AA. You 3 bet someone's open and out of left field the BB (who has you covered) just shoves all in. Are you losing whatever you 3bet with and folding or are you snap calling this dude who shoved all in? I think your going to call. Or let's say the dude just 4 bets you and you decide to flat and the flop come 2♡ 6♧ 9♤. The dude shoves all in, your just going to fold? Even if he check raises you are you folding? I don't think you are but maybe you do, I don't know. I think if you are folding in any of these situations, all anyone has to do is call your bets and shove on the river. Your talking about villains that can adjust and don't think they can adjust to you not calling with 1 pair? I feel like the hero can be easily exploited if people know you just fold aces if they don't improve. (You as a general player not you personally.)

    On a side note I have folded AA many times in my life. I folded AA tonight with a 3rd Ace on the flop and it was the right play. Its just very rare im going to fold AA on a board with no flushes, no straights and 22 being the only board pair. In my session tonight I had to fold several hands that were the 2nd nuts on the board. All 3 times after I debated and folded the villain showed me the nuts.

    Getting stacked happens. I've been stacked many times in my life. It sucks but it happens. Tonight I got stacked twice in huge pots and lost the most money I have ever lost in 1 session and one of the times was with 2 pair and I would do it again, granted both times I was well ahead when the money got in. Shit just happens.

    With all that being said, I generally agree with what your saying. Especially at the lower levels the most money and biggest pots came from people who just couldn't get away from their top pair or overpair, but at those lower levels when some random dude just starts betting the river they are almost never bluffing. At the same time I've seen AA stack KK (sometimes QQ) on dry boards without overcards at every level I have ever played.

    The last question I have is if you don't want to play big pots with AA, do you just flat preflop and call down or are you set mining with AA? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm truly curious as to how you play Aces if your not trying to get money in the pot. (I'm not talking about boards that are just truly terrible for AA, I mean dry safe looking boards).

  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 131Subscriber
    edited December 2020

    Letmewin: What you are saying is totally incorrect from poker theory standpoint. How many BBS we have is not relevant. More relevant is SPR and the fact we only lose to 6 combos of hands. Flop SPR is 4.5. It’s perfectly fine to shovel money in here with the third nuts. If he has TT/JJ so be it, that’s a very small part of his range. AA is way too high up in our own range to ever consider a fold.

  • RasputinRasputin Posts: 18Subscriber

    As played I’m calling all day. I’m not a fan of the flop c-bet. I’d have gone half pot against this particular villain. You’re always ahead here and it sounds like he will call with anything so why not get max value?

  • N8Ball02N8Ball02 Posts: 78Member

    Rasputin- I agree that I don't like the flop bet as well. I would stand by if I went 1/3 pot ($350). I like the third size bet to keep him in the hand and to stay balanced as 3rd pot is a bet size I like to bet with air/ top pair or set or whatever the nuts is on the particular board.

    I like my 1/2 pot turn bet which I would size up if there were any significant draws to 2/3 or 3/4 pot. My check on the river is where I don't think that is a good play. From the villains perspective that check almost seems like I double barreled and gave up.

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