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5/10/25 wide ranges and massive flop sizing

ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
edited September 24 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This was played in a Texas club game. Mandatory $25 straddle is on.

Villain is a LAG reg in this game; he's a strong winning player. He 3bets liberally. He's very aggressive and capable of running large bluffs -- he might be overbluffing in spots, but I'm not sure.

I typically play 1/3 and sometimes 5/5. This is maybe my 3rd time playing this stake. Villain knows I usually play lower stakes. Villain might think I'm nervous to play these stakes.

Villain starts with $2.5k, I cover.

Action folds to hero in the SB, and hero opens to $100 with 6 5. Villain 3bets in BB to $275. Straddle folds. Hero calls.

Flop: T 5 3 (pot: $575)

Hero checks, Villain bets $400, Hero calls.

Turn: J T 5 3 (pot: $1375)

Hero checks, Villain bets $525 (leaving himself $1300 behind), Hero folds.

My question is, how to react to the flop sizing which surprised me? It seems unlikely that we are not going to be facing multiple barrels when Villain uses this sizing. However, this is one of my best 5x and folding flop would be exploitable. Turn seems like an easy decision.

If we pick up additional equity, with a 4 or a club, can we be justified to check-raise turn all in, or would that be a mistake given the massive flop sizing?

How wide can I open from the SB in a 3-blind format? I would probably open JTo at the lower end of my range. Is that too loose? Maybe with a LAG on my left, I should tighten up?

More generally, how to combat this approach where Villain uses a puny preflop sizing, so that we enter the flop with a very wide range, and then bombs the flop for near pot? Do we just look to MDF and call flop with our best 50% of hands? Or, is this line typically underbluffed, and we should look to fold out all but our top pair or better?

Thanks for any comments.
Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel

Comments

  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 151Member
    This was played in a Texas club game. Mandatory $25 straddle is on.

    Villain is a LAG reg in this game; he's a strong winning player. He 3bets liberally. He's very aggressive and capable of running large bluffs -- he might be overbluffing in spots, but I'm not sure.

    I typically play 1/3 and sometimes 5/5. This is maybe my 3rd time playing this stake. Villain knows I usually play lower stakes. Villain might think I'm nervous to play these stakes.

    Villain starts with $2.5k, I cover.

    Action folds to hero in the SB, and hero opens to $100 with 6 5. Villain 3bets in BB to $275. Straddle folds. Hero calls.

    Flop: T 5 3 (pot: $575)

    Hero checks, Villain bets $400, Hero calls.

    Turn: J T 5 3 (pot: $1375)

    Hero checks, Villain bets $525 (leaving himself $1300 behind), Hero folds.

    My question is, how to react to the flop sizing which surprised me? It seems unlikely that we are not going to be facing multiple barrels when Villain uses this sizing. However, this is one of my best 5x and folding flop would be exploitable. Turn seems like an easy decision.

    If we pick up additional equity, with a 4 or a club, can we be justified to check-raise turn all in, or would that be a mistake given the massive flop sizing?

    How wide can I open from the SB in a 3-blind format? I would probably open JTo at the lower end of my range. Is that too loose? Maybe with a LAG on my left, I should tighten up?

    More generally, how to combat this approach where Villain uses a puny preflop sizing, so that we enter the flop with a very wide range, and then bombs the flop for near pot? Do we just look to MDF and call flop with our best 50% of hands? Or, is this line typically underbluffed, and we should look to fold out all but our top pair or better?

    Thanks for any comments.

    I think your 3rd question is the most important. In a 3 blind structure, you should play very tight as the first blind. I honestly would probably pitch this hand preflop, especially playing a game that is rougly 8-10 times larger than that which you normally play. In a 3 blind structure, we can play this spot very snug.

    The ranges would typically be wider in a blind versus blind, and you could continue with your raise fairly often and I don't think that would be a bad thing. However, with 3 blinds it is much different. I would typically play the first blind with UTG ranges.

    When the villain bets large on the flop, you can defend less. If he is a strong winning player, yes he may bluff you out on some flops, but, I would rather not play out of position with the hand you have. Remember the 15/25/35 you were talking about? You are at 14.2, against a strong player, out of position, in a game you don't normally play. I think you could have dumped pre flop and moved on.

    As far as picking up equity and making a play for the pot, if he figures you for opening tight, what are you representing versus his range? I am not sure. Probably a mistake with any sizing. Have to break down the hand ranges, but we don't really know what he is thinking about you, completely.

    In general, again, play the first blind very tight. Then, you won't have such a wide range and you can 4 bet more from OOP or continue for 3 with a very strong hand.
    I would not put a huge weight into MDF, in this spot, as it is only looking at the 1 street situation on the flop. You already feel like this is going to get barrelled. You have enough instinct and knowledge to navigate this situation better. Most of the time, we are not improving and have a pair of 5's on the turn.

    I don't know about him underbluffing, I think he is using his continuing principles here. You are going to have a hard time calling down on this board with any 1 pair below TT. He could certainly barrell it with no pair.

    I honestly think this is played pretty standard. I would not mind you folding the flop either. That would be okay to his large bet, but then...why call preflop...then...don't open light from the first blind.
    You are probably better off not going down that wormhole and just playing it tighter pre.

    Interesting for sure. 3 blind games are unfamiliar to many. Nice post.




    Thanked by 1ChaosInEquilibrium
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 554Subscriber
    edited September 24
    Pre-flop, I not a fan of playing this hand in SB with 3 blinds. You are going against what you described as a good LAG player. I'm not looking to go to war with 65s. I'm a nit and I'd fold pre-flop and definitely to the 3-bet. You're not deep enough and not in position.

    Flop, I'm a bit torn. I want to fold because the size of the bet. On the other hand, you flop a pair and have some backdoors going on which beat some of his bluffs. But his bet will leave himself with $1.3K and the pot will have $1375, which is to say, if you follow through with your plan to x-raise bluff 4x, ♣ and he has a real hand, I don't think a check-raise will work simply because he'll be pot committed with any decent turn bet. You may be better off open shoving if a 4x or ♣ appear. Overall, I'm leaning towards a fold, but I could be convinced otherwise.

    Turn is an easy check-fold.

    To answer your other questions:
    Re flop sizing: I'd react as I normally do. First, I would make made note of his 3-bet pots and continuation bet sizes and tie them in with what was shown down previously. Barring any additional information, you are facing a significant bet, and I don't think the pot odds, stack depth and implied odds are there to continue.

    Re check-raising the turn when you turn additional equity: As stated above, your stacks are not deep enough to x-raise effectively.

    Re opening range from SB in 3-blind format. I'm playing significantly tighter from SB especially with described opponent. To that end, the minimum suited connector I'd even consider playing is T9s and even then, I wouldn't hate a fold.

    Re how to combat the small pre-flop/large flop approach: tighten your range, add some 4-bet bluffs (e.g. A5s, AJo, etc.) add some traps smooth calling 3-bets with AA/KK. In your stack size scenario, I would prefer to take a fold/x-raise all-in stance, but I don't think your specific flop quite qualifies.
  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited September 24
    >>But his bet will leave himself with $1.3K and the pot will have $1375, which is to say, if you follow through with your plan to x-raise bluff 4x, ♣ and he has a real hand, I don't think a check-raise will work simply because he'll be pot committed with any decent turn bet.

    @Garland: is that true? I'd calculated it as $1375 pot, with $1825 behind heading to the turn. I don't think I can open shove with that sizing. Given his turn sizing, a x/r (say, on the J ) would be for $1300 into a pot of $2500, so half pot. You're right, that does seem small. I suppose that's the issue of continuing with this hand when he uses the monster flop sizing. But then folding flop is so exploitable?

    I was guesstimating that I might use CO ranges in a standard 2-blind format for opening the SB in my game -- that's a 25% range. Checking Upswing ranges, you see that JTo and 54s are at the bottom of the CO range. Alternatively, if you use a 20% range (i.e., using Upswing's HJ range), then QJo and 65s are at the bottom of the range. Nevertheless, I agree that 65s is at best a borderline open and given the LAG to my left, the easiest approach is to fold.

    Re what I'm representing when I take the line of x/c flop, x/r turn, I have TT/55 in my range (again, using a 20% preflop range, so I'm not opening 33). That's about it, in general. Not much, unfortunately. Certain other turn cards will give me two pair combos, such as J, 9, Q, K, A (I am opening ATs-JTs, T9s, ATo). So, I have 5 direct outs (5x/6x), and 12 outs to turn my hand into a semibluff. Obviously, any T is also a really good card for me, and I think I can either lead turn, or x/r turn on this card. Of course, there's a chance he's just making a one-and-done bet with AK/AQ, and I end up winning the hand at showdown. But as you pointed out, the question really is whether I can have enough fold equity given stack sizes on the semibluff outs (I should have a bit more fold equity on the 9,T,JQ,K,A, and less fold equity on the other clubs or the 4). Without fold equity on x/r turn, it's gonna be really hard to play turns with this specific hand.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 554Subscriber
    edited September 24
    @ChaosInEquilibrium. Sorry, I misread your post and thought he had $1300 left for the turn. Still, let's say he makes a bet of half pot or larger, >$700. The pot will have $3900 and he'll have to call $1125, meaning he'd bet getting nearly about 3.5:1 on a call, which doesn't seem like it would get through as a semi-bluff.

    The biggest issue I see with looking at CO open ranges is position. Yes, you are contending with 1 more opponent, but I don't think that compensates for the majority of the time you have position vs SB and/or BB. In addition, you should be adjusting the chart ranges by tightening up with LAGs on your left as you described.

    My one other suggestion is when a seat is available to his left, I'd seat change.
    Thanked by 1ChaosInEquilibrium
  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited September 24
    @Garland, a small math error in your post: I think it's $2900 not $3900. Given stack sizes, it does seem like optimal sizing would be $500 here on turn, as he did bet, leaving himself half-pot to shove on river. So we should assume he chooses the sizing which leaves half-pot behind. He'd be getting 3:1 on my x/r, so he'd need 25% equity to call a x/r on turn. Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to figure out whether such a x/r would have any fold equity.

    Edit: We could get him to fold hands like AK/AQ on a J turn, that's for sure. We might get thin value if he has KQ. We're losing to QJ,KJ,AJ. I don't think he's ever folding those hands. I don't know if I could even get him to fold a T. Then again, I don't think he'd bet a T on the turn, so that's irrelevant.

    So I guess I answered my own question, a x/r would have close to zero fold equity on a J turn.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 554Subscriber
    edited September 24
    My math is $1375 pot at the start of the turn round + $700 turn bet villain + your $1825 all-in= $3900. Not sure $500 turn bet is optimal. I'd review other hands to see if he ever folded in this scenario before.
    Thanked by 1ChaosInEquilibrium
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,231Subscriber
    I don't think you can use CO range from SB in a 3 blind structure. You're going to be OOP the whole way. I'd much rather have a worse hand IP, all day.

    FWIW you said this is one of your best 5x. That can't be true! If all you have is the sooteds 65, 54, and A5, this is in the middle to bottom of 2nd pair combos. I'd assume we have all the A5 and less that all of the 54. Yes, 65s can turn oesd in addtion to a gutter, but the A kicker gives you an overcard as well as putting you ahead of his 5x hands.
  • RasputinRasputin Posts: 17Subscriber

    Are we not doing the folding preflop thing anymore?

  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited September 25
    @CycleV I'm 3-betting A5s preflop at 100%, and I'm not opening 54s at 100%. I think that 55, 65s and QJo are my marginal cusp hands. So 65s with a backdoor is truly one of my best 5s in this spot. I think we prefer to continue with 65s rather than 66-99. So, in theory we have to continue here.

    What I'd landed on for SB range is this 18% range: {55+,65s+,QTs+,KTs+,Axs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo}.

    I think I really need to brush up on my preflop ranges. Even my ranges for 2-blind games are rusty. So, I landed at a ~20% SB opening range by a guess. I remember that we open ~50% from the SB in a 2-blind game. So, I divided by 2 because we're facing two players (I know that's not how it actually works). Then I rounded down to 20% because we aren't receiving as much of a discount in the SB relative to pot size. I know that's probably wrong, but I don't know what the correct answer is -- if anyone has information on this, please let me know. It would be a great help in the long run!


    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 151Member
    "I think I really need to brush up on my preflop ranges. Even my ranges for 2-blind games are rusty. So, I landed at a ~20% SB opening range by a guess. I remember that we open ~50% from the SB in a 2-blind game. So, I divided by 2 because we're facing two players (I know that's not how it actually works). Then I rounded down to 20% because we aren't receiving as much of a discount in the SB relative to pot size. I know that's probably wrong, but I don't know what the correct answer is -- if anyone has information on this, please let me know. It would be a great help in the long run!"

    This information is available in some of the curriculum videos and Rob's videos. No 413 High states at Best Bet Jax.
    As I said before, you should likely use UTG ranges from the first blind.
  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    @Nathan Thanks for that information. I'll take a look at the video right now.
  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited September 28
    @Nathan,
    I'm not sure your preflop ranges are correct. UTG in a 2-blind live game is against 8 uncapped ranges, and is out of position to 6 uncapped ranges. SB in a 3-blind game is against just 2 uncapped ranges (out of position to all).
    The best approximation to SB in a 3-blind game is the HJ or CO in a standard 2-blind game. HJ in a standard 2 blind game is out of position to 2 uncapped ranges, and facing 4 ranges overall. So SB in 3-blind is facing less opposition than HJ in 2-blind. Therefore, my intuition is that SB in a 3-blind game would open looser than a standard HJ range (around 20%). 65s falls firmly in that range.

    FWIW I posted this hand to 2+2 mid-stakes, and Jarretman responded that the preflop open is fine, but the call to 3-bet is a leak. Jarretman is a well-known figure on the forum -- he's a 50/100 live and 10/20 online crusher. I typically take his advice as gospel on any poker topic.
    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 151Member
    I saw your post. That site blows, its outdated and mostly full of trolls. The advice from this site, due to being paid subscriptions is much better. The majority of the people actually have an interest in improving. I think it is funny that you post it however. If I hadn't actually ever used 2+2, I would not know who he is and would wonder, like ....DGAF who Jarretman is. The range work came from the videos that are provided by CLP. I don't use my own ranges on any of my replies, in order to maintain a simple point of reference for the discussion. I wonder when Jarret started playing so large. When I used T+T he stuck mainly to 5/10.

    Regardless, you asked" How wide can I open from the SB in a 3-blind format? I would probably open JTo at the lower end of my range. Is that too loose? Maybe with a LAG on my left, I should tighten up?"

    I guess you will just have to stick with those CO ranges and find out how well it works from the first blind. Trial and error is the best way to learn.

    The question that answers the ranges, is what incentive do we have to play loose from this exact spot?

  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber
    edited September 29

    I don’t see how an argument can be made that SB in UTG straddled pot would open any tighter than HJ in an unstraddled pot.

    HJ is facing two uncapped ranges to his left, and four uncapped ranges overall.


    SB in straddled pot is facing two uncapped ranges to his left, and two uncapped ranges overall.


    Therefore SB is facing less opposition in the field than typical HJ. Logic would dictate that SB would open looser than a standard HJ range. That’s why I believe the preflop open should be between HJ and CO frequencies.


    To answer your question as to what incentivizes us to open SB with 65s, the same answer as for why we open 75s/64s/T9o/any marginal holding in the SB in unstraddled pot: to take down the blinds. Also, in this hand I am $7000 effective with the Straddle. I expect the most likely scenario to be: all players fold (win). The second most likely scenario is BB folds, Straddle calls. I play a pot with a range advantage against a big stack (win). Third most likely scenario is BB 3-bets (lose, I have to fold). Least likely scenario is Straddle 3-bets (lose, I have to fold).


    Still haven’t received an explanation from anyone on any forum as to why we should open SB tighter than a HJ range. I’m done hammering this point, so I’ll withdraw from the thread now.


    Edit: I’ve been focusing on preflop RFI in my posts because 7 of 8 people who I’ve shared this hand with have criticized the RFI. And I’m generally skeptical/stubborn to follow popular wisdom without an accompanying logical explanation.

    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • RasputinRasputin Posts: 17Subscriber

    Habibi, can you post a link to your 2+2 thread or PM me?

  • ChaosInEquilibriumChaosInEquilibrium Posts: 121Subscriber

    Most interesting point on 2+2 thread is Jarret suggested that I may check-raise flop with my hand. Which is backed up by my review of the hand in PIO. Did not expect that.

  • RasputinRasputin Posts: 17Subscriber
    edited September 29

    Interesting. Wonder why PIO suggests that. Probably because of backdoors.

    Thanked by 1ChaosInEquilibrium
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,248Member
    Your open is fine but at 100BB eff. OOP in a 3B pot think about folding.
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