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QQ facing 4bet

Nit_BetNit_Bet Posts: 61Member
edited July 6 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Grand Casino Liechtenstein, Game 5/2 , 8-handed, all 200bbs deep

Hand in question:

Fish opens UTG to 15$, LAG 3-bets UTG+1 to 45$, solid TAG 4-bets MP to 145$ and hero wakes up with

Q Q

in the SB.

What should we do?
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • GarlandGarland Posts: 529Subscriber
    edited July 6
    As described, it’s a painful, but necessary fold. At *best* solid TAG has AKs, otherwise you are dominated by AA/KK too often. You also still have the original raise and 3-bettor to contend with.
  • Nit_BetNit_Bet Posts: 61Member
    Easier said than done.
    In the end we have 16 combos AK vs 12 combos AA and KK respectively.
    So we should have a slight advantage here.
  • jtm1208jtm1208 Posts: 18Member
    here's the think about 16 combos of AK vs 12 combos of AA/KK, you still are going to have to win the hand. Of that 16 times you are against AK, you're going to lose about 7 of them. So even if you are slightly profitable against AK, you're way losing against AA/KK. Enough that you're almost always in a -EV spot here.

    Know, if you think JJ could be in his range here, then you're starting to get closer to a profitable spot.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 529Subscriber
    edited July 6

    No one said the fold was easy. A TAG cold 4-bet is so decidedly polarized, so much so that in normal games, I would discount AK heavily, to the point where at best I would assign the suited variety.

    Even if you were to assume all 16 combos of AK, you are 55/45 against this and 20/80 when you are against AA or KK. (16*0.55+12*0.2)/(16+12) = 0.4. 0.5 is break-even so, even in your assumptions, this should be a fold.

    As noted by the other poster, you can consider making a play if you think JJ is part of his 4-betting range. Also, I would note the timing of the 4-bet. The quicker he places it, the more inclined I would be to believe he has AA or KK.

  • San_HoserSan_Hoser Posts: 18Subscriber
    Don't call. Fold or 5-bet based on your reads of the villains.
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    edited July 7
    I think with the configuration of UTG, LAG+1, and TAG MP1 to $145, the Hero in SB should be inclinded to raise out the bb, utg, lag+1 and put the action back on MP1 with an amount that will snuff out real strength. Folding is clearly a mistake preflop...do we not ever think that the utg is opening 66, 77, 88, the lag is raising light(as lag's tend to do) and the TAG knows this and is making a 4 bet raise with worse than QQ (TT, JJ, AK)? Make it $425, knowing this is the last of the money going into the pot without improving. Plus, this should likely avoid you flopping an overpair and guessing as to where you are at.
  • Nit_BetNit_Bet Posts: 61Member
    Garland wrote: »
    https://crushlivepoker.com/forums/discussion/comment/124054#Comment_124054
    No one said the fold was easy. A TAG cold 4-bet is so decidedly polarized, so much so that in normal games, I would discount AK heavily, to the point where at best I would assign the suited variety.
    Even if you were to assume all 16 combos of AK, you are 55/45 against this and 20/80 when you are against AA or KK. (16*0.55+12*0.2)/(16+12) = 0.4. 0.5 is break-even so, even in your assumptions, this should be a fold.
    As noted by the other poster, you can consider making a play if you think JJ is part of his 4-betting range. Also, I would note the timing of the 4-bet. The quicker he places it, the more inclined I would be to believe he has AA or KK.

    Good, clear analyses which I share and I see this spot the same way.
    J-J IS IN HIS 4BETTING RANGE AGAINST THIS OPPONENT, AS THERE ARE A FEW BLUFFS.
    My assumption he puts out a squeeze play was based on the knowledge that the 3bettor is usually 3betting loose.

    As played I 5bet and called the shove - we nicely dealt it twice and A-A hold up.

    Nice hand.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 529Subscriber
    edited July 8

    [quote]

    I think with the configuration of UTG, LAG+1, and TAG MP1 to $145, the Hero in SB should be inclinded to raise out the bb, utg, lag+1 and put the action back on MP1 with an amount that will snuff out real strength. Folding is clearly a mistake preflop...do we not ever think that the utg is opening 66, 77, 88, the lag is raising light(as lag's tend to do) and the TAG knows this and is making a 4 bet raise with worse than QQ (TT, JJ, AK)? Make it $425, knowing this is the last of the money going into the pot without improving. Plus, this should likely avoid you flopping an overpair and guessing as to where you are at.

    [/quote]

    I don't see why folding pre-flop is "clearly a mistake". At the very best it's a marginal mistake based on the assumptions of a cold 4-betting range. Also, do you realize that by making it $425 and assuming the other two fold and the 4-bettor just calls as he possibly can with the top of his range (AA/KK/AK), the pot will be about $915 and you only have $575 left in your stack? Are you planning to not put $ into to a 732 :r: flop?

    If you were to opt to 5-bet, you don't need to make it so large, ~$320 should do the job. I'm not sure what OP 5-bet sizing is, but if it is about the size I recommend, then I think you can get away if he moves in.

  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    Ooops...Sorry Garland..and original poster...I was confusing the $ amount with my own post!!! We are 200 blinds deep at 2-5! I was thinking we were $2000 deep! So yeah we have $1000 in our stack...can't 4 bet large and fold like that often, but is AK really going to call in that spot and miss the flop 2/3 of the time? On the same note, We could call the $145 and play out of position with a hand that we don't plan to put in a ton of money without improving and see what comes on the flop. We still have 16/12 on AK vs. AA and KK. I think that being rigid in the play and "always" making a play one way or the other is not quite flexible enough. I don't think folding is terrible, in this configuration $1000 deep, however, I would rather take a more defining play I guess. If I put in 80 or so bb and another player calls me, i think that is enough information. As far as the sizing goes, 2-5 blinds, 15, 45, 145, 320=532 if we say 7 for rake and drop for a pot of 525, villain has to call 175 to win a pot of 700. He is getting 4 to 1 and that will leave a pot size bet for both on the flop. I think there are plenty of spots here to make money and make a mistake as well. $60 in hopefull dead money and the blinds...I don't think it is an insignificant amount. I don't mind the conservative approach either. That is why we are discussing. Thx.
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    Nit_Bet wrote: »
    Garland wrote: »
    https://crushlivepoker.com/forums/discussion/comment/124054#Comment_124054
    No one said the fold was easy. A TAG cold 4-bet is so decidedly polarized, so much so that in normal games, I would discount AK heavily, to the point where at best I would assign the suited variety.
    Even if you were to assume all 16 combos of AK, you are 55/45 against this and 20/80 when you are against AA or KK. (16*0.55+12*0.2)/(16+12) = 0.4. 0.5 is break-even so, even in your assumptions, this should be a fold.
    As noted by the other poster, you can consider making a play if you think JJ is part of his 4-betting range. Also, I would note the timing of the 4-bet. The quicker he places it, the more inclined I would be to believe he has AA or KK.

    Good, clear analyses which I share and I see this spot the same way.
    J-J IS IN HIS 4BETTING RANGE AGAINST THIS OPPONENT, AS THERE ARE A FEW BLUFFS.
    My assumption he puts out a squeeze play was based on the knowledge that the 3bettor is usually 3betting loose.

    As played I 5bet and called the shove - we nicely dealt it twice and A-A hold up.

    Nice hand.

    OP, What did you make it for the 5 bet? Garland does have a good point about the sizing and still being able to dump soundly?
  • Nit_BetNit_Bet Posts: 61Member
    edited July 8
    I put in a big bet to hard press a fold - something like $400 taking myself more or less the possibility to fold.

    I generally think the play was sound over all based on my assumptions made concerning the situation in total.
    That villain had A-A was just 'unlucky'. He could have been sitting on A-5s or 9-9 too.

    Q-Q is by the way one of my most disliked hands (beside 9-2o which I get dealt insanely often in the last two weeks always from a certain female dealer).

    Cheers
    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 613Subscriber
    edited July 8

    I was originally thinking like Nathan that MP could be squeezing somewhat lighter than KK+ and AK if he was tight AGGRESSIVE as opposed to TIGHT aggressive. (That said, I don’t think 99 or A5s is part of a good TAG cold 4-bet range. You don’t want to use a polar range in this spot and 99 is too weak as the bottom of a linear range vs UTG open and +1 3bet IMO.)

    But even if you give him AQs, AJs and JJ, It’s still a flip heads up. And you need to take into account that there are still two uncapped ranges to get through, which leads me to lean towards a tough fold.

    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    Superfly wrote: »
    I was originally thinking like Nathan that MP could be squeezing somewhat lighter than KK+ and AK if he was tight AGGRESSIVE as opposed to TIGHT aggressive. (That said, I don’t think 99 or A5s is part of a good TAG cold 4-bet range. You don’t want to use a polar range in this spot and 99 is too weak as the bottom of a linear range vs UTG open and +1 3bet IMO.)
    But even if you give him AQs, AJs and JJ, It’s still a flip heads up. And you need to take into account that there are still two uncapped ranges to get through, which leads me to lean towards a tough fold.

    Can you explain this to me? { You don’t want to use a polar range in this spot and 99 is too weak as the bottom of a linear range vs UTG open and +1 3bet IMO.)} I think the very act of 4 betting is polarized or polarizing.

    I agree with something you said: There are still two uncapped ranges to hear from. This is something important, but I think that if either of these guys play you are done too. Furthermore, if you were to cold 5 bet out of the sb, and they play OOP to the 4 bettor, they are probably jamming. However, at that point you would loose your 5 bet, so like I said, I do agree with they have yet to be heard from.
    However, those first two players to enter the pot, I think are given less credit as the picture is painted. We ask the question regarding the opening fish and the lag 3 bettor and would the 4 bettor raise JJ or TT or AK here.

    If you are really scared, you could muck...or you could just call the 145$ and say you have to improve, but I don't like that so much as we don't know what the two behind will do. I stil think you get get in 20% of your stack and make a shrewd fold, though.
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 613Subscriber

    Hi Nathan, take a look at Ki Lee’s Fast Track video #39. He discusses linear cold 4bet ranges as the last topic in that video.

    In this video, he also addresses the problem of just cold calling 3bets vs 2 players, which applies even more to cold calling 4bets vs 3 players. Calling here with the intention to muck if anyone shoves pre or if you don’t hit a set and face any aggression on the flop just seems like a negative EV play to me. Meaning you end up mucking and losing more than what you gain the few times you win. But as I always say, I’m just a student of the game with a lot to learn, so take my opinions with a grain of salt!

    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    I have seen this video. I like his thoughts. I also don't disagree with the idea of "calling with the intention of mucking" which is why i would lean toward raising and making a fold preflop if shoved on. I like Garland's $320 amount better than my own $425. I appreciate your thoughts and input. I look forward to learning more from your posts.
  • MVHMVH Posts: 18Subscriber

    2 thoughts, take them for what they are worth. If it's a really close spot maybe look at some of the intangibles. What is your edge in the game? Are better spots gonna come around? It might be nitty but are you giving up much by folding here? Also, and this may not be applicable here, but if you cold call the 4 bet it caps your range. If the 4 bettor were a good player they could really put pressure on you post flop.

    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 613Subscriber
    edited July 9

    One final thought on this hand. There is a rule of thumb that you should never fold to a preflop shove after putting 1/3 of your stack in. That’s because you are getting 2:1, which is good enough to call in most situations vs standard ranges. Raising QQ to $300+ with a $1000 stack with the intention to fold to a shove breaks this guideline and the equity analysis shown in the earlier posts shows why a fold getting 2:1 odds is -EV.

    Thanked by 1NathanGuentzel
  • NathanGuentzelNathanGuentzel Posts: 30Member
    I like your thoughts there MVH..we only have the sb invested....I am sure there are better spots than this exact situation, right? Good Point. Also, as Superfly said just prior, I think if we flatted the 4 bet, we are in a very tough spot regardless...right?? not attractive.

    The rule of thumb from Fly is the "not folding after betting 1/3 of your stack....you can reasonable make the fold at that point...right and that is it. 1/3 is the point of no return, in general. If we are going to be picky about it, lets be accurate. I also think this is a general guideline. For instance...What is the TAG really like. What is that description from the poster mean. If I have a fish open utg, and a LAG that is liberally 3 betting him at 25%, I am absolutely 4-betting that player with some non-nut hands. If this particular player would not have anything other than KK+, AKs in his range, then yeah, dump.
    Appreciate all the inputs...has been a good learning experience!
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,246Member
    Just fold, with this type of action and based on positions QQ should just hit the muck.
  • Shorn7Shorn7 Posts: 57Subscriber
    Superfly wrote: »
    One final thought on this hand. There is a rule of thumb that you should never fold to a preflop shove after putting 1/3 of your stack in. That’s because you are getting 2:1, which is good enough to call in most situations vs standard ranges. Raising QQ to $300+ with a $1000 stack with the intention to fold to a shove breaks this guideline and the equity analysis shown in the earlier posts shows why a fold getting 2:1 odds is -EV.
    This. We can’t 5 bet fold here as we aren’t deep enough to do so. Generally I hate flatting here but this might be the one spot where it has some merit. TT and JJ are easy folds and in game I might have folded here, but I wonder if taking slightly less than the 8-1 necessary and playing QQ as a small pair is the most optimal play.
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