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Well played flop play? Or just spewy gambling on ranges?

Rigged79Rigged79 Posts: 3Subscriber
edited March 17 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
This is a hand I played a while back, that was widely regarded by my friends at at the table as one of the better live plays they have seen, after hearing my justification. I don't give myself that credit, and I'm not entirely convinced it was played well; instead, thinking maybe (?) it was a touch spewy and I got "lucky".

Regardless, this is the hand:

Hero: I play live poker as my source of income in a small casino, with a ton of locals who frequent the place. I'm regarded as one of the better players (I was a 200NL online 6m and 100NL HU NLH pro prior to online poker being wiped out of my country). I play primarily with business men playing 5/10/20 NLH, (when the game actually gets up), and as such, I have taken on a cocky and egotistical persona - with the theory that they come after me and give me action. Worse players very often try to make plays against me, and villain falls into that category.

Villain: Aggressive Asian player. Successful and young business man. Thinking player, albeit, thinks incorrectly - but he attempts to play good LAG'ish poker. I've seen villain limp behind small pairs set mining, (which is almost standard where I play). We have an established dynamic where I have pushed him around a bit prior by fighting his aggression with my own aggression in select spots. I have the upper hand over him, and I'm not so sure he likes it.

The current table dynamic is quite loose passive by most players, with a ton of limp/calling and just general low stakes shitty play that you'd expect to see at these stakes.

Effective stacks: $600 playing 2/5 NL.

Positions: Villain is in the cutoff. Hero is in the BB.

Action: 2x limpers from EP. Villain over-limps in CO, SB completes, Hero raises to $50 from BB (10x).

Hero's holding: TT

EP limpers fold.

CO calls

SB fold.



2 players to the flop.

Flop: QJ2r
Pot: $115

Hero: checks
Villain: bets: $95

Hero: ????
Pre-flop: I raised to 10x as the "standard" raise sizing I typically use is 5x from EP, 4x from MP and 3x from LP. 5X from the blinds. I add on a BB for each limper. The standard open from everyone else that somewhat knows what they are doing is typically 4x from anywhere.

Flop: This is where it gets interesting. Against many of the players I frequently play against, in this spot, I'd just sigh fold and expect them to show up with some crap like QXs. QTo, QJo, KQo or something of the sort. Especially from the older aged players who just limp call almost their entire range, save their absolute premiums.

However, vs. this villain, I'm not so sure.

I elected to check the flop, as, well, I was trying to sell my hand as AK that missed and then I was checking the flop as it is supposed to hit villain's range. Something to note: I don't believe this flop hits this particular villains limp/call range at all. (Except maybe 9Ts or 89s for a gut-shot. But I have the Tens, making only 2x combo's of 9Ts.) Saying that, villain probably doesn't know that I know this. I'm putting myself in his head here, and playing how he'd expect me to play if I was him.

Anyway, I thought for 10s or so, then checked the flop here with absolutely zero intention of folding. My initial thought was to check/call the flop, and let villain fire away on future streets and calling him down on most all run outs; but villain almost had his chips in the pot before I'd even finished my check.

Seeing his speed at betting and lack of thought, I decided to check/raise all in for value, expecting to get called by a small pair after villain (incorrectly) reads my hand as AK.

I raised all in for $550 effective, and villain thought for a bit, and eventually called.

Turn: 2

River: 4

Final board: QJ224

Showdown: Hero has TT, Villain has 88.

Hero wins.



Thoughts on this hand? Given reads, is it worth shoving 110BB's in OTF with effectively 3rd pair? Or is it just a spewy gamble based on hero's thoughts on villains typical range?

TLDR: Managed to get all the monies in there, by playing my hand like it was AK that missed.




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Comments

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    edited March 17
    May I make a suggestion and completely remove the results. The results already have impacted how I would answer this hand.

    All I can say is by the Flop play I think check calling would be the best to let your villain Bluff. It is unlikely he holds a Jx or Qx hand because otherwise he would have raised the limpers so if he called your raise who me it seems he would have some Axs hand or 22-77 maybe 88 or 99 if he tends to limp in these spots with mid to low pocket pairs. He does have some shitty Q8s or Q9s maybe but those combos are so few.
  • Rigged79Rigged79 Posts: 3Subscriber
    edited March 17
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    May I make a suggestion and completely remove the results. The results already have impacted how I would answer this hand.

    All I can say is by the Flop play I think check calling would be the best to let your villain Bluff. It is unlikely he holds a Jack or holds Queen because otherwise he would have raised the limpers so if you called your raise who me it seems he would have some a Axe hand or 22-77 maybe 88 or 99 if he tends to limp in these spots with mid to low pocket pairs.

    Hi, apologies - I didn't realise I could spoiler the post, as it's my first post here. I know for future, (and I've editted my OP). Thanks for making me aware.

    And to respond to your suggested line:

    Check/Calling was my original train of thought here, (and what I originally intended to do), but after he bet so quickly, I tried to be a little creative as I figured he has some form of small pair that he was just auto-clicking to get me to fold out my equity - which is also why he bet on the larger side, imo. Due to the speed of his bet, he clearly didn't have a nutted hand or a strong holding, as he'd most likely put at least a little bit of thought into his flop bet.

    I decided to try to play my hand like villain would likely expect me to play AK, and effectively shove 3rd pair in the hope of being called by a smaller pocket pair. Which may or may not have been a little optimistic of me.

  • GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
    edited March 17
    Pre-Flop: I'm not sure what your specific stack is, but if it is around $600 then I can buy into a slightly smaller amount to raise pre-flop ($40-$45). I don't think $50 is really out of line.

    Check-calling flop is the default play, but you two have history. The deviation you're making is leveling villain to make him think you can't possibly have AA->JJ because you wouldn't check the flop and him locking you into a specific hand. The first thing people think of when you raise pre-flop is "you have AK" and the check solidifies that thought in villain's mind and in his mind you are playing it hard and making a move for the gut shot and 2 overs value and him making a rather large (and incorrect) protection bet with an under pair. Obviously it's fine if this is the result you envisioned. You had a read on villain's holding, a plan and executed said plan with success and it's hard to argue with your result. Honestly, I'm not really sure why you're posting this hand.

    Agreed it's best to remove results before eliciting opinions first.
  • Jax1234Jax1234 Posts: 67Member
    edited March 19
    You should probably just take your action out of the spoiler since you are asking forum readers to evaluate your play on the flop. The only way for them to do so without reading the spoiler first is if you reveal your flop move. I would leave what the villain did after your flop play in the spoiler.

    I've read the spoiler but even without having read it, I lean towards spewy gambling and you getting lucky with your opponent. It sounds like you are a crusher and more power to you. But at the same time, I wish I could play against your opponents given what you revealed in the spoiler. You block his air (e.g., king/ten, ten/nine, ten/eight) and my suspicion based on your reasoning is that this particular type of loose Asian villain is going to call off with any jack, let alone all queens. I assume you were hoping that he would fold right?
  • Rigged79Rigged79 Posts: 3Subscriber
    Jax1234 wrote: »
    You should probably just take your action out of the spoiler since you are asking forum readers to evaluate your play on the flop. The only way for them to do so without reading the spoiler first is if you reveal your flop move. I would leave what the villain did after your flop play in the spoiler.

    I've read the spoiler but even without having read it, I lean towards spewy gambling and you getting lucky with your opponent. It sounds like you are a crusher and more power to you. But at the same time, I wish I could play against your opponents given what you revealed in the spoiler. You block his air (e.g., king/ten, ten/nine, ten/eight) and my suspicion based on your reasoning is that this particular type of loose Asian villain is going to call off with any jack, let alone all queens. I assume you were hoping that he would fold right?

    Nah, I didn't really want him to fold. He nearly always has air there or a small pair. He opens most all of his Jx Qx type value hands from position, and whilst he's bad he's still good enough to fold his garbage JXs and QXs type hands to my open, when closing the action.

    I shoved for value expecting either a fold (which denies him future street equity realisation [his air such as AXs, KXs]), or a call from a small pair. Shitty live players absolutely love to pin your opening range as AK exclusively when you open, until something hits them in the head and tells them otherwise.

    You're probably right, though. I also lean towards spewy gamble as I'm value shoving against a bit of a narrow range. I asked here, because poker-buddies that I play live with disagree with me saying it was a bit of spew, instead, lauding it as a well played hand.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    Post your answer in a hidden Spoiler or Results... I forgot the tag. Or post it later.
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