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Facing a Limp Jam (Not the Open Limper)

JredAJredA Posts: 100Subscriber
edited March 1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$2/5 Live

Main villain just sits down and is the UTG1 seat for this hand. He is a middle aged Asian who buys in for $300 when the table average stack is close to $1k. This is literally his first hand.

UTG limps - He has played very straightforward.

Main Villain limps behind in the UTG1 seat.

I raise to $30 w/ TT in the LJ and am effective among the remaining players with $1.1k.

HJ calls.

BTN calls.

UTG folds.

Main villain in UTG1 thinks for a small bit and then jams for $295.

I have encountered similar spots like this before. And my thinking was that I could heavily discount AA, KK and even QQ in a spot like this. Leaving villain with a range with something like this: JJ-77, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, AQo+

Do you guys find this range reasonable?

And if so do you prefer the call or re-jam?
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Comments

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Posts: 134Subscriber
    I’ve fallen into the trap with AA before in a similar situation, so I wouldn’t discount the big pairs too much. Also, the bottom parts of the range are so villain dependent, it’s hard to know where to draw the line, but at 60 BB I probably wouldn’t include KJs or QJs.

    I’m not sure about the merits of flatting vs. 4!. It seems unlikely that HJ or BTN has a hand worth even calling $300, as those hands would likely 3! themselves. The pot would also be somewhat protected with the All-in player and a dry side pot, so your positional disadvantage would be minimized. That said, I would probably still 4! jam and hope to be flipping with some overlay.
    Thanked by 1crux
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    If you average out his range you are flipping. But I have seen this trick done often enough that it is AA more times than not.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • LatvianMissileLatvianMissile Posts: 294Subscriber
    I wouldn't flat. With TT I'm going to re-raise and go heads up or just fold. V dependent. With no reads... I probably fold. I'm not a big fan of flipping pre flop
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • JlordsJlords Posts: 7Subscriber
    edited March 3
    Agree that I wouldn't take QQ-AA out of the range here (especially coming from EP). I'd also take KJs+ and QJs out of the range.

    I think jam or fold are the only options here, and would also probably lean towards fold as it seems pretty close to a coin flip if you do get it heads up, but it's close. JJ I'd go for the jam since I think that's where the pairs under you start to outweigh the pairs above you in the range.

    If there's any info on the villain's tendencies I think that could heavily influence the decision here. From what I've seen, there seem to be people who will jam their short stack in a spot like this with basically any pair, who I'd be jamming here against.
  • acehole76acehole76 Posts: 17Member
    Why in the world are you guys advocating a fold when you think it’s probably a flip vs his range with an overlay?
  • cruxcrux Posts: 119Subscriber
    I do agree that you have to give V some QQ-AA still, but I do discount them as usually the limp/jam is done as an open with those hands, not an over-limp. Against the unknown middle-aged Asian guys that I play against, I'm re-jamming here pretty much 100% of the time. The players behind would be more my concern than the limp-jam. If the people behind you are the type to gamble huge parts of their stack with Ax suited or Kx suited, I could see folding and letting them call off the jammer. But, as mentioned, if one of the players behind had a hand worth calling off even $295, let alone $1k, they probably 3! already. I feel like flatting is the worst option as you may just get someone behind to decide they are "priced in."
  • JredAJredA Posts: 100Subscriber
    acehole76 wrote: »
    Why in the world are you guys advocating a fold when you think it’s probably a flip vs his range with an overlay?

    Im wondering this as well and is part of the reason I posted this hand. There is a decent amount of dead money in the pot.

    When action is back to us there is $400 in the pot and we need to call $265. So we need about 40% equity.

    If we give villain the range listed above and add 25% of AA, KK and QQ we are well above a flip as we are getting 56%.

    Even if we give villain the absurdly tight range of QQ+, AQs+, AQo+ we are still getting above the 40% equity that we need (43%).

    My decision was rather I should call or jam. I chose to flat, but now that I think about it I think I prefer the jam for the mentions reasoned above and players left to act.
    I flat, everyone else folds. Villain had QJs.

    On a side note, I hear the term "flip" used often and I am not sure I fully understand the meaning when it is used. For example a few posters in this hand say they would avoid this spot because we are flipping. When I hear flip I think 50/50.

    Most people would say TT vs a range of all over cards like AJs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo is a "flip". But TT has 55% equity. We only need 40% equity. Even if we are below a 50/50 true flip, say we our hand is getting like 45% equity shouldn't we push these small edges in cash games?
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    edited March 8
    This feels like a "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" type discussion. We're splitting hairs over the range of a 100% unknown.

    If you want to do the math, personally I would tend towards giving him higher than 25% of the AA-QQ, and much less than 100% of the more bullshitty parts of the widest range you chose to give him. There's just no way he's doing this every single time he looks down at ATs or AQo. If you give him a range that wide, you're likely skewing the results because you want to call.

    And if you want to, that's fine! I agree with the take that it's a shove or fold spot, and that the players left to act behind you, I want them all out.

    What we should do in-game depends so much on what we look like, what V looks like, and our own situation regarding how we handle losing a spot like this, how our BR (both financial and psychological) is doing atm, and a bunch of other factors. I would also factor in that he bought in for the table minimum. That screams "gamble gamble" more than anything else in the post.
    Thanked by 1crux
  • JredAJredA Posts: 100Subscriber
    CycleV wrote: »
    What we should do in-game depends so much on what we look like, what V looks like, and our own situation regarding how we handle losing a spot like this, how our BR (both financial and psychological) is doing atm, and a bunch of other factors. I would also factor in that he bought in for the table minimum. That screams "gamble gamble" more than anything else in the post.

    Well said. Thanks for the feedback.
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