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2/5 - Barreling and Sizing

dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,060Subscriber
2/5 $500 Cap at Winstar

Villain UTG2 ($2000) - Playing very, very loose preflop, limp/calling a lot of suited hands and broadway cards, but raises premiums. Postflop is fairly straightforward, doesn't bluff, also doesn't valuebet thinly.

Hero CO ($1100) - Been very aggressive preflop, finding good spots to 3bet. Postflop pretty ABC, though just a couple hands before this had a hand where I checkraised turn in a limped pot with an OESD, didn't fire a bad river for my hand, but showed down queen-high which was somehow good (not against villain). Got a few chuckles at the table, so villain definitely noticed this.

Villain limps UTG2. Hero in CO with 6 7 raises to $25. Villain calls.
Pot $50. Flop A 5 4. Villain checks. Hero bets $20. Villain calls.
Pot $90. Turn T. Villain checks. Hero bets $70. Villain calls.
Pot $230. River K. Villain checks. Hero bets $130...

I thought villain had a lot of weak aces, straight draws (even though I block), and flush draws. Thoughts on the triple? How's the sizing? This is a must-bluff on the river, right?

Comments

  • GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
    edited November 2019
    I'd probably start with $30 on the flop, but ok. As played, OK to triple barrel, but I think you're going to have to go much bigger on the river, like about $200 to dislodge his one pair Ax hands. We can even entertain over-betting the pot like $275 (as long as we're balanced if we have AK, AA, flushes in our range).
    Thanked by 2Steveo76 crux
  • Jax1234Jax1234 Posts: 67Member
    Unfortunately, the player type that you describe is the type who is going to call off with a single pair of aces to a half-pot sized bet on the river, especially against an aggressive player who has shown down a bluff. They are playing passively pre-flop just to keep the pot small enough to where they can call down with top pair against an aggressive opponent.

    Even though $130 is the amount you would probably bet if you did hit your flush on the river, I suspect he's going to conclude that the price is right to call off with top pair. This player type is probably only going to be influenced to fold if you bomb the river with an overbet.

    These player types seem more willing to fold their top pair hands if they get raised post-flop as it'll look like you flopped or turned a monster. So perhaps checking back the flop to induce a lead from the villain on the turn that you can raise may be the best way to get this type of villain to fold a top pair hand.

    Thanked by 1Steveo76
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    I think 76s is a hand that can go either way pre. If we have some players left to act that can squeeze light, I'd rather raise than call. If we do not have those players behind us, I think I'd rather just limp along against a player who plays "very, very loose preflop" Without much fold equity, I think raising pre loses some of it's benefits.

    AP - I like the cbet and sizing

    OTT, I like the double barrel with the added equity coming. I also like the larger sizing.

    The problem I see with triple barreling is a lot of V's calling range ott should consist of diamonds. I also think a lot of his weaker Aces should be folding to your large turn sizing. I guess you could argue that if he continues the turn with an ace, he's hoping the diamonds brick and when they don't, we have the green light to bluff him off that type of hand.

    Overall, I feel the triple barrel is a bit ambitious and we can find better, easier spots for bluffing at 2/5 and lower. I would give this one up otr.
    Thanked by 1Steveo76
  • StreetFighterStreetFighter Posts: 184Subscriber
    @dpbuck

    Thoughts on overbetting the turn and giving up unimproved? I don't think your turn sizing accomplishes much except build a pot for when you hit.
    Thanked by 2Steveo76 crux
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,060Subscriber
    @streetfighter - Funny you posed that question. That was going to be the next thing I posted in this thread. I pondered absolutely bombing the turn, but thought I had so much equity, and had the ability to triple most rivers that I thought 2/3 pot would be sufficient. Anybody else like overbetting turn?
    Thanked by 1crux
  • McLovinMcLovin Posts: 50Subscriber
    Pre flop is standard.
    We can size up on this flop around 30-40 i guess.
    Not a fan of turn bet here. I guess we can check the turn to get a free river. Villain is never folding an A here to this bet size so i will just check and take a show down. If u want to bet then just OB here in this spot to put his A in a tough spot.
    On river just give up. Ad and Kd both are out which greatly reduces our flush draws and thin values (AKo with a diamond). Most of our flush draws with a T should be checking the turn so we are not repping many flushes on river.
  • ArenzanoArenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Given your description of the V, I’d expect this player to have plenty of Ax in his range. The turn is where the big bet needs to be executed- $115. The Kd is not a good card for you as it limits your flushes.
  • cruxcrux Posts: 119Subscriber
    I don't mind the pre-flop raise or the bet on the flop, but agree that the turn is probably the best place to really put more pressure with a pot-sized or over bet.
    As others mentioned, and has been said in some other threads recently, the value sized river bet almost never works unless the V was chasing, and there isn't much chasing that didn't hit the river. You may have to go as big as like $300 on the river to discourage the "I've got to see it" call.
    I'm probably giving up on the river given the description of the Villain and the runout, though.
    Thanked by 1Steveo76
  • JredAJredA Posts: 100Subscriber
    Slightly off topic, but what were your thoughts on the games at Winstar?
  • JredAJredA Posts: 100Subscriber
    On the turn it's an interesting spot and from an equilibrium perspective I think we could break our sizings up into the standard sizing and an over bet sizing . Especially against a villain who is wide here with so many marginal hands. Mainly Ax, draws and marginal pairs who may view you as bluffy.

    We could over bet our strongest combos (AA and TT for 6 combos) and balance it out with some of our weakest draws (7c8c,7d8d, 6c7c,6d7d, 8c6c,8d6d for 6 combos).

    However, it does not sound like balancing or equilibrium play is a concern and we could probably widen our over bet bluff range here on the turn and follow it up with a large sizing on the river - assuming we think villain is capable of folding his marginal Ax hands.

    Ive played at Winstar and a large percentage of the player pool gets married to these Ax holdings no matter how much heat you put on them, especially if they think you bluff a lot. So this comes down to a read based decision on the turn.

    As played, on this river we have several value hands in this spot that we are betting (AA, TT, AK, AQ, A5, A4, AT, QJ, all our back door diamonds that got there) but we don't have many bluffs. So from a theory standpoint I think we should bet small targeting the weak Ax hands with our value and same w/ bluffs, but I highly doubt villain is thinking about this. He is just thinking how large of a bet he can call with his marginal hand. Again, if we think he is capable of folding we need to put out a large exploitable bet on this river to target those weak Ax hands. 2/3 to 3/4 pot would be my size. $200 or so.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,060Subscriber
    JredA wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but what were your thoughts on the games at Winstar?

    The 2/5 on Saturday nights is usually pretty good, as most of the profit players are playing 5/T or PLO.

    I typically play Saturday and/or Sunday afternoons, and the games are usually kinda meh. Game was pretty good this past Sunday though. I don't play in any of the private games around DFW, so really outside when the Circuit stops are at Choctaw, these games at Winstar are the best I can get.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,060Subscriber
    Thanks for all the feedback. In-game, I was trying to take the same line I would if I had something like AK/AQ. And I would absolutely take that hand for three streets. So perhaps this is a spot where I can take two sizings on the turn? Maybe overbet sets and my big combodraws like this, and exploitatively smaller with Ax? I'm not very good at range-splitting (and of course that may be overkill in a spot like this.)

    Theoretically, I feel I have to bluff this river. I mean, I never get to this spot with the Qd to bluff, so what else do I have, right? And of course I have no SDV. But exploitatively perhaps that is a bit ambitious, and I can just waive the white flag...
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Flop bet is way too small. I would size way up.
    Turn - definitely overbet that card.
    Then I would try to get a live read on how he reacts to the overbet and base river decision on that.
    I think it's OK to give up this river (especially if you overbet turn) vs described V.
    It sounds like he can have a lot of weird 2p, few QJ and obv some flush combos and unclear if he would fold something as weak as A9..
    Thanked by 2dpbuck crux
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 591Subscriber
    edited November 2019
    I’d go a little bigger on the turn and a lot bigger on the river to amp up pressure, but probably wouldn’t overbet turn. Would you overbet AK or AQ in that spot? If not seems a little suspicious after your bluff bet in earlier hand.

    Interestingly, you did not fire the river in the earlier hand. So I think that gives your river bluff in this hand some added fold equity. But I think it needs to be at least pot sized to get V off an A.
  • LatvianMissileLatvianMissile Posts: 294Subscriber
    edited November 2019
    JredA wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but what were your thoughts on the games at Winstar?

    Games are almost always good at WinStar. I play there maybe 2-3 times a month and usually on weeknights. During the day the game is slow and at nights it'll be good. There's always enough tables running that you can find a good one.

    Not a fan of the $500 cap.
  • cruxcrux Posts: 119Subscriber
    edited November 2019
    How do you guys navigate a $500 cap $2/5 game, seriously?
    The local games around here are generally $400min buy in, $1500 cap. $500-2500 for 5/5.
  • LatvianMissileLatvianMissile Posts: 294Subscriber
    crux wrote: »
    How do you guys navigate a $500 cap $2/5 game, seriously?
    The local games around here are generally $400min buy in, $1500 cap. $500-2500 for 5/5.

    I play a little bit tighter and try to play hands that can make top pair on the flop. OOP i play less suited connectors until/if my stack gets deeper. From my experience, a bunch of people that like to gamble there so you usually get called on flop/turn.
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