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Isolating too many limper’s w/weak off suit broadways + c bet bluffing frequency

ValueTown84ValueTown84 Posts: 2Subscriber
edited November 2019 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Background: New subscriber/poster here but longtime winning player at $1-2/$2-5 over several thousand hours. I added a very expensive leak to my game over the last 500 hours by implementing the “pain threshold” concept talked about on red chip w/ the weak off suit combos (AJ A10 KQ KJ QJ). After doing this + watching several videos by Bart/Ki/David Chan I know it is total spew + have a better understanding of post flop implications when we raise pre flop over limps + what we’re trying to accomplish w/what hands + what our c betting bluffing frequency should be.

Example that is used on red chip is being in LP w/ KJ off, having 4 limps + advocating to bomb it over standard raise sizing to get folds or to get it heads up as opposed to over limping. I know this is table/player dependent but even if the player’s are very nitty I feel bombing it we either A. get a fold (which won’t happen often with 4 limps, especially if we’re doing it every time we have one of these off suit combos because then we’re unbalanced w/ our isolating frequency) or B. we narrow opponent’s continuing range to strong hands that dominate us + if we do get it 2-3 handed where we could c bet bluff, we don’t have a hand w/ good playability since it’s unsuited so we cannot/should not c bet bluff often since we can’t double barrel at a high frequency since we can’t turn strong equity as opposed to if we were suited + flopped a back door flush draw.

After watching KI’s videos + reading some of Bart’s comments, I realized I was opening and isolating too wide w/ these hands. Ki’s video says 3 limps use UTG UTG1 to isolate, 2 limps use MP1 to isolate, and 1 limp use MP2 to isolate. So w/ 3 limps, we elect to over limp all of these combos, 2 limps we can isolate off suit AJ KQ, 1 limp we can isolate all of them. I know these are guidelines and if you’re a better player and it’s a nitty game you can get away with more but feel like the example i gave with KJ off is just way too loose/spewy for reasons I mentioned.

I think the most common spot I did recently was isolating 3 limps w/off suit AJ KQ. I really didn’t think this was too loose until I gained a better understanding of what hands we want to c bet bluff with…and my conclusion (which I think is correct) is that we want suited hands + back door flush draw…so on 963 r, A5 suited w/ BDFD or QJ suited w/ BDFD is better to c bet bluff than A10/KJ off suit.

My Questions (assume it goes 2-3 handed on the flop and both players are not stations)

Do we construct our c bet bluffing range w/ more suited hands than off suit hands because we are using the variable of flopping a back door flush draw as one of the main reasons when choosing to c bet bluff? So we would rather have a strong suited hand w/ BDFD as opposed to KJ off or A10 off on a 952 r board?

If we c bet too much, we are over bluffing, so should we choose to have these off suit broadway combos in our check back range on the flop to do a delayed c-bet on turn/evaluate/possibly give up where we elect to not c bet the flop most of the time when we miss since we cannot flop a back door flush draw?

If we know we are not c betting a lot w/ these weak off suit combos when we raise and get called, but we want to deviate from Ki’s/Bart’s isolating guidelines sometimes when there are 3-4 limps to isolating wider because the game is super nitty, wouldn’t it make sense to choose hands that have better playability like suited 109 98 87 76 A9 A5 A4 A3 because then we can at least flop strong back doors so we can c bet bluff at a decent frequency and our hand won’t be dominated versus the nitty players continuing range which is usually 99+ and strong broadway cards and we can sometimes win a huge pot making a disguised hand whereas we’ll very rarely make a huge hand with something like KJ off suit?

In loose passive games I am over limping these suited hands with that many limper’s but in super nitty games I started to wonder if these are better combos to get out of line with than the weak off suit broadways?



  • GarlandGarland Posts: 529Subscriber
    edited November 2019
    A lot to comment on, but I'll say that KJo is right on the cusp of where I'll limp vs. raise with 3+ limpers in LP (i.e. I'll raise with KQo/AJo/KJs pretty much always in the same scenario). You have a sense of the game if everyone's limp calling a raise, or if there are people who will limp fold. For hands up to KJo, it's "spew" if everyone will call and especially if the blinds are loose and call happy. In the cases where you're almost always going 3+ opponents, you should tilt your raising range for value and try to get in cheaply with speculative hands and especially if effective stacks of opponents are shorter, like less than 80BB.

    If you feel you can get blinds to fold and at least one limper to fold, then raising KJo with 3 limpers is probably fine.
    Thanked by 2crux LatvianMissile
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    If multiple limpers are always calling your iso raises - you're not sizing large enough.
    The only reason to be "concerned" is if people are routinely limp-calling very strong hands like AQ, AJ, etc.
    Then you might want to reconsider ISOing hands like KJo because you might not be dominating their limp-calling range that much.

  • LatvianMissileLatvianMissile Posts: 297Subscriber
    Just to add: Bart had a podcast called "why suited hands are better". It's definitely worth a listen.

    Position is going to matter as well. In the HJ or later, I'd ISO a little weaker. In the SB I'd tighten up since you're OOP.
    The game is going to matter. If people are going to limp-call no matter what, then we should ISO tighter. If we see limp-folds then we can raise wider. In the BB on a passive table I'll ISO limps as weak as ATo.
  • ValueTown84ValueTown84 Posts: 2Subscriber
    Thanks for the comments.

    I know there are so many variables that go into every decision that it’s not as black and white as “always raise these hands in this spot.” But I feel a lot of player’s including myself look down at those off suit hands in late position, see 2, 3 or 4 limps and then think that a raise is mandatory without really thinking that those off suit combos aren’t the best c bet bluff combos when we miss.

    AJo/KQo is in a different category than the other’s because it’s more for value when we hit. So I guess it’s more about A10o/KJo/QJo with 2-3 limper’s and I know sometimes there’s 1-2 limps and it’s more likely to go 4+ ways to the flop because of the player’s in the blinds and other times there’s 3-4 limps and it’s more likely to go heads up cause everyone’s a nit.

    I guess I just wanted to see people’s thoughts about choosing to iso wider with A10o/KJo/QJo v. suited connector’s/suited A9-A2 when the limper’s and blinds are nits and we know it’s never going more than 2-3 handed if we’re called so we can c bet bluff at a higher frequency. I’ve recently found myself either c bet bluffing bad flops or check folding a lot 3 handed with A10o/KJo/QJo when I miss as the PFR. Maybe I just wasn’t recognizing how loose the game was playing.
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