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2/5 insanely deep

Hero is viewed by most as a big loser in the game. Because I am very talkative and say the fishiest things, people think I'm a horrible player. Villain is a winning pro who may or may not be fooled by my act.

2.5k effective
Hero in MP with JdJh. One limp, hero 25. Villain in BB 125, limper folds, hero calls.

Flop 743ssx
Villain 180 hero call.

Turn 7x (no bdfd)
Villain 600 hero call.

River Ko
Villain jam 1600, hero?

Range villain here? Range hero should call?


  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 591Subscriber
    edited October 2019
    I don’t know about ranges but V is obviously extremely polar and you have a bluff catcher.

    This seems like a great board for V to run a 3-barrel bluff, esp if he has blockers to the nut FD. Your open-call pre makes it unlikely you hit that low flop. And your check-calls vs large bets on flop and turn make it look like you have exactly what you have - decent but not premium PP. Combine that with the fact that V is winning pro and this could very well be an aggressive multi-barrel bluff IMO. In his Fast Track series I remember @KiLee talking about how he loved to pound such boards across multiple streets as the preflop aggressor.

    But I also think V has a lot of kings and may have got lucky on the river. Regardless, I don’t think you have many kings, so at a minimum V probably considers it a safe card for him and scare card for you. I say this because I don’t see H playing KK, AK or KQ the way you did.

    If the K hadn’t come I probably call. But since it did, probably fold unless there is some player-specific dynamic or read involved. I’d also think about your image. Does he have reason to believe your loose preflop and will have to fold a lot of hands to pressure? Or are you sticky and call down light?

    I’d be interested to hear what others think about check-raising the flop. This reeks of “raising to see where you’re at” which I know everybody hates. But just check-calling down to the river doesn’t seem all that great either. JJ could benefit from some protection.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    It's quite unlikely a winning pro would go for 3 streets in a 3! pot with TT here. Especially at 500 bbs deep. It's possible he has spades but not that likely. I'm probably folding the turn to that sizing and def folding the river.

    His range I would guess is like KK+, AKss, maaybe KQss

    I don't know what the MDF answer is to what to call with, but I would fold JJ on turn, fold QQ on river.

    This is mostly to do with stack sizes and the fact V is pretty much betting pot for 3 streets. Seems unlikely a pro would do this for anything but value.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 591Subscriber
    Kabooj, it’s funny you say you can’t see a winning pro firing off a 3-barrel bluff. I’ve been watching a lot of @robfarha videos recently and when I read this HH he actually came to mind because it seems exactly like something he would do, but I could be wrong. I’ve @‘ed him to see if I’m off base here. Lol.
    Thanked by 1Niklius
  • fishcakefishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    Turn is a fold. While he should have some spades here like AQss KQss, there's 18 combos of overpairs that beat you that likely play the turn like this. Just from a combonatorics standpoint the turn is a snap fold.
    Thanked by 1Fetterfool
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    @Superfly The compelling factor for me is we are 500 bbs deep. If it was 200 bbs or if 500 was normal for the game (maybe there's usually a straddle on?) then I could get on board with V having a bluff range.

    However, essentially mashing the pot button for 3 streets in a 3! pot looking to get 500bbs in otr against a player he appears to have little history with looks like pure value betting to me.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    I'm on board with @kaboojie. This is way too deep for a villain to go PSB in 3bet pot 500 deep. That's really nuts.

    200bb deep versus a competent player, I like a river call on more reasonable sized bets.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • nakedputnakedput Posts: 2Subscriber
    Not sure how much this matters but the game is uncapped but normally doesn't play this deep. The recs typically buy in 200-1k while the pros typically buy in for 1k-1.5k. I bought in for 1k and ran my stack up to 3k. The pro bought in for 1.5k (when I had 3k) initially but topped off to my stack after watching me play a couple orbits.

    I'm likely viewed as a looser player as I have a 30 vpip. I actually play pretty tight postflop but I have no idea if the pro has noticed or not.

    Honestly the river spot is so close in my mind. Do you really think he's firing with Aces or Kings for that sizing on the turn? Do you think that he value bets AK on the river? To another question I actually fold a brick river 100% of the time here since I don't think he'll bluff it. The K could be a scare card that he'll bluff.
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 591Subscriber
    edited October 2019
    @nakedput, yes I can see why V would bet just under pot on turn. Because you bet-called pre, it’s unlikely you hit the flop. So when you just call a large bet on the flop, he likely puts you on an overpair that will call a large bet on blank turns.

    My question is why would he bet AA/KK so big on the flop. Initially I thought AA/KK would bet smaller to try and keep you in. But maybe he thinks you will call anything with overpairs and flush draws, but that you won’t call even a small bet with broadways that missed, etc. so might as well target those hands that will call and bet big. Betting big with AA/KK also allows him to bet big with his bluffs, increasing his fold equity.

    And yes I think he value bets AK and bluffs When a K hits the river for the reasons given in my original post.

    TBH i feel a little out of my depth with the range analysis here, but it makes sense to me and even seems kind of brilliant in a balanced way.

    As for good players not running 3-barrel bluffs when stacks are super deep, I think it’s the reverse. You only want to run such bluffs when stacks are deep because you need to bet big and apply pressure across all three streets. If you try that with an average stack, you won’t have enough on the later streets for the bluff to be effective. But this is new thinking for me and not based on experience, so maybe I’m missing something.

    I hope you have a reveal for us. This hand is super interesting. I’d like to know if I’m all wet!
  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    Going back to preflop, they are playing super deep and the pro (who seems more so by the moment, making his 3bets OOP preflop larger than normal while really deep) 3bet to 5X.

    @nakedput Had the pro 3bet before this hand? If so and you remember, was this a standard sizing?

    You seem unsure if the pro has noticed you. And if I'm a savvy pro, I'm going to be pounding on the weak little player who's playing for his whole stack, way deeper than he might be used to.

    ...but I'm not going to do it with a bluff. I'm fine with being super-de-duper unbalanced in my fire 3-barrels 500bbs deep versus unknowns. I'm also not going to bloat the pot with pot sized bets versus an unknown, even with an overpair.

    If he pays attention and is a pro and doesn't fall for your ruse and you know that, I think I can make a call. There are at least 2 villains I play with from time to time who are very, very good and I would be inclined to call them. But not a pro who may or may not know you. I pass.

    77 makes perfect sense, by the way.
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 591Subscriber
    @nakedput, any reveal? What happened?
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