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Way OOL?

2/5, $500 eff.

+2 limp, LJ limp, Hero raises $30 in HJ with AdQh, both limpers call.

($88). Flop: Ts5c3c. x to me I bet $50, planning to fire any J+/2/4/Q/A, maybe even club if we go heads up. Both call.

($232). Turn: 2s (BDFD). x to me, Hero bets $120, thinking I can outleverage +2 and LJ if they have TX, and continue to barrel scare rivers if called. +2 folds, LJ calls.

($472). River: 8d. V x, H x. I have $350 behind, and thinking TX won’t fold at this point and I may have a shred of SDV against missed FDs.

Thoughts? Too spewy or okay?

Comments

  • GarlandGarland Posts: 529Subscriber
    TLDR--Yes, it's spewy.

    Long version: The way I construct a c-bet range with one or two opponents and AQo is if you have a and probably best to have A. IMO, your flop bet is too wide and I don't particularly like the plan to fire turn on a J, 2, 4 (2 or 4 hits calling range) or (you don't have a club, so that increases the chance one of the others does). You also may have the best hand. I would preserve the right to do a delayed c-bet if everyone checks to you on the turn.

    The turn brings another flush draw and again, you don't have any :s:, so it increases the probably someone else someone has the backdoor draw and the bluff will fail.

    I'm giving up on the river.



  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 606Subscriber
    edited September 2019
    Garland’s comments seem like good guidance to me. I don’t have a big problem with a cbet on a pretty dry board in position when checked to. But once you’re called by both, I’d shut it down.

    It’s interesting to think about how the limp-callers ranges interact with this board. Versus your average 2-5 V, I would include small-med PPs. I think there are a bunch of weaker or gapped suited broadways, some suited and maybe even unsuited Ax with med kicker, and some of the larger suited connectors. Seem right?

    Needless to say many of these hands include a T, so in all likelihood you’re trying to get someone off top pair. And with a T specifically you could well be up against AT or some other big kicker.

    FDs are the other main probably. That means multi-barreling, but vs two Vs your chances go way down. Having a 3rd player’s money in the pot gives Vs better odds to chase or get sticky.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • SugarmanSugarman Posts: 44Subscriber
    I just think +2 is going to have a real hard time continuing here OTT against a bet with anything less than 2p, and LJ’s hand looks like TX or a big FD right? But how often will those hands be able to call across rivers? I agree with Garland in that I think I should have structured my flop cbet MW with a club or BD spades.
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    edited September 2019
    Sugarman wrote: »
    I just think +2 is going to have a real hard time continuing here OTT against a bet with anything less than 2p, and LJ’s hand looks like TX or a big FD right? But how often will those hands be able to call across rivers?

    I think you're giving your V's waaaay too much credit. One clown open limps, the next clown limped behind. If they haz pair, they're feeling good about themselves. The idea that they are only calling with 2p+ is not how these guys likely play.

    It's important to treat thinking opponents one way, and unthinking opponents a different way.

    EDIT: if you simply feel like you're in a bullying mood--we all have those moments--in addition to structuring like Garland laid out, I'd rather you did it with a hand like QJ or 87. With AQ you actually do have some showdown value (as well as block some pairs V's could have like A5/A3).
  • SuperflySuperfly Posts: 606Subscriber
    It’s interesting to compare this hand with the one in “2-5 should I cbet multiway?” In that Hand H also raises with AQo and gets called by two limpers. Flop comes Ks8s3d and checks to H. Hero just has one over and couple of backdoors. Despite the similar circumstances, in this case cbet seems better because K hits PFRs range harder than T and because H has As nut FD blocker. Agree or no?
  • PokerShamanPokerShaman Posts: 107Subscriber
    Superfly wrote: »
    It’s interesting to compare this hand with the one in “2-5 should I cbet multiway?” In that Hand H also raises with AQo and gets called by two limpers. Flop comes Ks8s3d and checks to H. Hero just has one over and couple of backdoors. Despite the similar circumstances, in this case cbet seems better because K hits PFRs range harder than T and because H has As nut FD blocker. Agree or no?

    In that hand, also, the only overcard to a K is an A, so the board is much more static, i.e. top pair on the flop is highly likely to be top pair on the turn, and so villains' prospects for improving are limited.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    Superfly wrote: »
    It’s interesting to compare this hand with the one in “2-5 should I cbet multiway?” In that Hand H also raises with AQo and gets called by two limpers. Flop comes Ks8s3d and checks to H. Hero just has one over and couple of backdoors. Despite the similar circumstances, in this case cbet seems better because K hits PFRs range harder than T and because H has As nut FD blocker. Agree or no?

    Sort of in order of importance to me, though as always, V-dependent:

    1. We have backdoors, means we have equity.
    2. Against passive, fit or fold types, I actually like the Tx board cuz it's dynamic, they are less likely to have tp, and they can be barreled off when overcards hit. The Kx board I am often 40%psb, one and done against this player type. Against some other V's, I prefer to rep the K with cbet flop and turn. (That plays better in a 3! pot where my perceived range has a lot of big cards, so this may not apply to you/your games.)
    3. I think the idea of blockers can get confused with the idea of bd equity. Unless you're in the mood to fire a stone cold bluff, our multibarrel bluffs should all be semibluffs. The flop is way too early to start thinking about blockers unless we are facing a c/r. Blockers are more of a later street concept. Example: If we have AT on a J98 board, we don't say we block the nuts, we say we have equity if we bet and get called or raised.

    I'm not necessarily wedded to anything I said here, just wasting time befor lunch. ;)
    Thanked by 1neutron212
  • hustlinhustlin Posts: 366Subscriber
    As played.....
    If u barreled turn , this is a neutral river. Doenst change much. I would empty the clip here.
    good odds on a bluff. U rep strong.
    U can get a portion of 10x to fold here.
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