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22 on the Button vs SB Donk Bet on King High Flop

deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 245Subscriber
edited July 2019 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
1/2 nlh EF $115 Villain in the SB is older woman with Far Side horned rimmed glasses. I've been playing with her for a couple of hours. She plays about 80% of her hands, never open raises and never folds to a raise once she's VIP'd. I have seen her donk several times and she's never shown down a strong flopped hand. I have about $450

ACTION
2 limps and I make it $12 OTB with Deuces. Villain in SB calls, BB calls as do both limpers.
$60 K :s: Q :s: 4 Horrible flop for me. My plan is to check it back and hope to spike a deuce. good plan, huh?
But strangely, Far Side Lady donks $25 into a flop that she should realize smacks my range right between the eyeballs and all three limpers fold.

What's my play here?
Fold. All I have is 4th pair and little hope of improving?
Call. This gives me some flexibility on later streets. If she bets out on the turn I can just fold and if she checks I can still bet rep'ing the King or maybe the Queen.
Raise. She's probably on a draw and I should deny her odds now, my hand is still vulnerable and she could easily make her hand or even better one.

Comments

  • PiggyPiggy Posts: 172Subscriber
    edited July 2019
    Bart’s material says that a small donk like this is usually a weak TP or a draw. Given the villain description (stationy older woman) I’m not going to try to raise her off what is going to be TPNK or 2-overs to our deuces and a FD. Probably just give up and fold. I mean, she just donked 25% of the effective stacks — pot is $85 and she has around $75 left. She is never folding. We can drop the hammer on her when we have AK, KQ or KJ here.

    With a $115 starting stack and sticky villains, opening 22 pre over multiple limpers is spew. It’s not a hand that plays well postflop, we have no stack depth or fold equity to multi barrel bluff, and not enough implied odds to raise as a set mine. We should just limp behind and play flop-a-set-or-fold here.
    Thanked by 2CycleV neutron212
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    I'm fine with a pot sweetener pre. People aren't going to stack off as often in an unraised pot, though this V may be an exception. Depends on the blinds, but if they'll come along for $10, their stacks can be in play too.

    I agree with Piggy that this is an easy fold otf. PLEASE don't start using "smacks my range" concepts against a V who 99% is not paying attention to anything other than her cards.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 245Subscriber
    True
    CycleV wrote: »
    I'm fine with a pot sweetener pre. People aren't going to stack off as often in an unraised pot, though this V may be an exception. Depends on the blinds, but if they'll come along for $10, their stacks can be in play too.

    I agree with Piggy that this is an easy fold otf. PLEASE don't start using "smacks my range" concepts against a V who 99% is not paying attention to anything other than her cards.

    I don't think that's completely true. When someone donks an Ace high or King high flop they are usually fully aware that the preflop raiser could have a big hand. A donk bet is almost always either a weak pair (top pair weak kicker or 2nd pair) trying to see where they're at or a draw trying to set their own price. Generally stronger hands check to the raiser hoping to checkraise but sometimes, rarely, on wet boards it's a strongish hand (2 pair, trips) afraid to see the turn and river. The weak pairs will usually fold out to a big raise, the draws are player dependant.



  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    edited July 2019
    I don't think that's completely true. When someone donks an Ace high or King high flop they are usually fully aware that the preflop raiser could have a big hand. A donk bet is almost always either a weak pair (top pair weak kicker or 2nd pair) trying to see where they're at or a draw trying to set their own price. Generally stronger hands check to the raiser hoping to checkraise but sometimes, rarely, on wet boards it's a strongish hand (2 pair, trips) afraid to see the turn and river. The weak pairs will usually fold out to a big raise, the draws are player dependant.

    Look, your description of the V is that she is a very special player. Doesn't fold once she's put money in the middle, donks out all the time and gets to showdown a lot with weak sauce.... You can't say she's all kinds of different from the norm, then come back and say our advice isn't taking a normal line.
  • deadinaditchdeadinaditch Posts: 245Subscriber
    edited July 2019
    I don't disagree with the advice, only the contention that weak players don't recognize range advantages. They may not fully understand the concept but they do have a sense that a preflop raiser is more likely to have something like AK than someone who limps in.

    A donk bet is usually a sort panic bet. They fear AK but they see something on the flop they like and bet out in a desperate attempt to try to take control of the action. They feel vindicated when they get away with a call or better yet a fold and their worst fears are realized when they get raised.

    So I said she never folds after putting money in the pot. In for a penny in for a pound. And that was true, at least as far as preflop betting went. She loved to see flops. She was to my immediate left and I never once got passed her with a raise, but she usually folded to a c-bet when she missed the flop.

    Still, it was optimistic for me to think I could get her off a hand once she lead into me, especially with only $75 behind.

    As played I did shove and she did think about it for about 30 seconds before reluctantly tossing a chip in for the call.

    The board ran out 9 K
    I showed my deuces and she turned over JT for a turned str8.
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