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ATo from BB

GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
edited February 2019 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Lucky Chances $3/$5. $550 Effective.
Hero A T in BB. UTG+1 limps (no read, big stack at table), CO limp, really laggy aggro action player completes in SB, I raise to $30 to attempt to thin the field, but all call.
Flop ($120): T 8 3 :s: Checks to me, Hero bets $60, UTG+1 calls, limper calls.
Turn ($300): 5 Hero bets $160. UTG+1 raises to $340, limper folds, Hero??? Hero has $120 left if he calls.
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Comments

  • JLBJJLBJ Posts: 172Subscriber
    I know it sounds absurd to fold, but he is repping such a strong hand here.

    You can never discount a random spazz with JT or something from someone determined to put you on AK or whatever hand to justify their not folding.

    Honestly, this is a spot where I think I should fold but often end up calling down because their value range is so narrow and get shown a set most of the time. It’s also possible that he limp-called with JJ, as absurd as that sounds.

    So I think you should fold, but I often call in-game with no reads on the opponent.
    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    Perhaps this is just against my player pool, but the BB preflop this is close to checking behind. And if I raise, I'm going closer to 35-40.

    AP, I find a fold here. Villain has so few draws here.
    JLBJ wrote: »
    It’s also possible that he limp-called with JJ, as absurd as that sounds.

    This is a good point and is why I tend to not bloat pots preflop with moderate/decent Ace-X.
    Thanked by 2Daddyslap CycleV
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
    ds2uared wrote: »
    Perhaps this is just against my player pool, but the BB preflop this is close to checking behind. And if I raise, I'm going closer to 35-40.

    AP, I find a fold here. Villain has so few draws here.
    JLBJ wrote: »
    It’s also possible that he limp-called with JJ, as absurd as that sounds.

    This is a good point and is why I tend to not bloat pots preflop with moderate/decent Ace-X.

    Thanks for your input regarding pre-flop. Another point which bears conversation is the fact this casino takes a drop of $6 (or $7 if a river is seen) out of the $20 pot. Therefore, I have an incentive to either take the pot down now ($2 drop) or try to get it heads up to mitigate against the steep rake. Now that said, even if it were a Vegas style rake (% of pot up to $x), I might still raise ATo from BB in this situation depending on the quality of opponents. By default, people who limp or overlimp with this rake structure doesn't really garner my respect.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
    Results: Hero calls turn. River is J. Hero checks with $120 behind. Villain says he doesn't like the river and checks and shows down KK. SB claims he would have rivered the nuts. In hindsight, probably should make the disciplined laydown.
  • JlordsJlords Posts: 7Subscriber
    Been reading your HH's - lot of great posts, but this one I just had to comment on after seeing no one responded after finding out V limp called KK.... lmao
  • LatvianMissileLatvianMissile Posts: 294Subscriber
    Preflop I like a mix between raising and checking. These in between hands are tough for me, but you can always raise and "give up" if it goes multi-way and you don't hit the flop or pull a c/r on a low board.

    Flop is fine. I like the turn bet targeting a weaker T or something like 97. But I'm going to fold to a turn raise because the Beluga Theorem is still one of the most profitable theorems to follow: "You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn".

    The only hand that picked anything up on the turn that could bluff is going to be 76 and UTG 1 has the whole table behind him so it'll be tough to float with that.

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,577Subscriber
    #1 I wouldn't raise ATo from the BB vs a bunch of limpers.
    #2 I wouldn't ESPECIALLY raise ATo from the BB vs a bunch of limpers at Lucky Chances.
    #3 you have a field caller raising you. Very easy fold here.

    And I see limping KK+ disease has hit the West Coast
  • jtm1208jtm1208 Posts: 14Member
    I agree with those that don't like the PF sizing. In my experience this bet is most likely getting called by at least 2 players, if not all 3. I would either check here or raise much larger preflop, $50. You are more likely to isolate or just take the pot down at that price. Probably checking about 70% of the time, depending on my image at this point in time.

    As played on the flop, I am going to size a bit bigger than half pot. I'd go for the 2/3 - 3/4 pot size bet here. $75-90. I think you'll get called by a bunch of inferior Ten's, J9, 79 and if QJ decides to come along with two over and a gut shot, you've at least made them pay more.

    Getting called twice is kind of alarming, but could easily be up against KT/QT/JT and some sort of draw.

    Turn as played, I I would lead out again: I think your sizing is fine, could go slightly bigger in the 180-190 range, but not mandatory. Getting raised here sucks, I think V is often going to have T8 or 53s. I would not view the raise as $340 but I would view it as an All-In.

    As someone else above said, this is one of those spots that feels like a fold when we discuss it off the table, but in action I probably call.

  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    And I see limping KK+ disease has hit the West Coast
    Dude, seriously. I keep running into KK and AA preflop limped or flatted. I value own myself sometimes but I try to remind myself they are missing out on a shit-ton of value in the long run.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 518Subscriber
    edited March 3
    I can't believe this year-old thread got resurrected. Even after a year, I still think with the drop structure (take $6 if see a flop, only $2 if won pre-flop) and value of my hand, I should be raising this maybe 80% of the time (with intent to fold to a limp re-raise). $30 is the perfect sizing as I would do with AA, KK or anything I want to get value on (I can buy into $35 if you add the adjustment BB for being OOP). $50 is just excessive and a deviation for special opponents.

    Limp calling KK isn't really common, and I'm not very concerned about that possibility. It's far more likely to be limp re-raised. That said, the turn is a fold that is easy in theory, but difficult in practice as many suggested. I'd like to think I've grown in that regard over the last year.
  • JlordsJlords Posts: 7Subscriber
    Limp re-raising with KK and AA is something I've seen a decent amount, but limp calling there is not one I've seen lol.

    FWIW I agree with the pre-flop raise there and think the sizing is solid to get that heads up or taken down a good amount of the time. If it doesn't (like in this example) you're still usually well ahead of the majority of their ranges since they're probably the type to limp call with a pretty wide range.

    Turn is definitely a super tough fold but I think there are a lot of value hands in the limp calling range (sets and some 2p seem very possible). I think you probably would have heard from a set or 2p on the flop, but possible they wait for the turn to raise or got there on the turn. There's an ok amount of straight draws in the bluffing range, but I can't see much else going for a bluff there.
  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    Garland wrote: »
    I can't believe this year-old thread got resurrected.

    No wonder I didn't remember posting my first response...

    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • JlordsJlords Posts: 7Subscriber
    ds2uared wrote: »
    Garland wrote: »
    I can't believe this year-old thread got resurrected.

    No wonder I didn't remember posting my first response...

    My bad - I just couldn't help myself after seeing the reveal.

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,577Subscriber
    ds2uared wrote: »
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    And I see limping KK+ disease has hit the West Coast
    Dude, seriously. I keep running into KK and AA preflop limped or flatted. I value own myself sometimes but I try to remind myself they are missing out on a shit-ton of value in the long run.

    How it works is that they lose out on other value and on occasion they get stacked with their AA/KK. But meanwhile you value own yourself. They make money playing this way, they just dont make as much as if they raised.

  • ds2uaredds2uared Posts: 464Subscriber
    @Fuzzypup I try to think of the times I crush them when I get to draw cheaply and bomb the river when I spike it.

    And the times I have QQ and they slow play KK and get super minimum value.

    And the times they pay off 120 BB's when I see a free flop with 82s on a 228 board and they can't get go of KK (happened the other day).

    But I sure do value-own myself a fucking lot.
    Thanked by 2Jlords CycleV
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,577Subscriber
    You hitting is rare though. I play small ball vs these guys once I realize what they are doing.
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