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1/2 Deep turn/river decision facing flop C/R

£1/£2 game £800 cap, 9 handed.5% rake structure capped at £5, no flat drop etc. This is the only game that runs regularly at this venue, usually 1-3 tables depending on the day, so the standard is probably better than your average 1-2 elsewhere due to lack of other options. Generally a mixture of tight-ish players and a couple of spots.

Villain is a regular in the game, mid 40s at a guess. Played with him a fair bit over the last few of years although not for a few months now as I've not been playing live much. He's always been one of the tighter players at the table, I've not seen him massively get out of line and when he sits down, one of the other players makes a snarky comment under his breath about how he might leave due to how 'boring' this guy is. Usually has it in big spots, but he's definitely not scared money either, always buys in for the max, doesn't mind putting money in and I know he plays bigger too both cash and MTT. We've spoken in the past and I know he views me as a decent but tighter player in this lineup.

Hero (~£580) dealt KcJh on BTN, villain (~£800) straddles UTG to 4. One limper in CO, I raise to 24 to isolate. Blinds fold, villain calls in the straddle, limper folds. Heads up to the flop.

FLOP: Ks 2h 3h (£55)

V checks, I cbet £34, V check-raises to £90. I call.

TURN: 5s (£235)

V bets £130, I think for a while and call.

RIVER: 9s (£495)

V thinks for about 10 seconds and moves all in.

Hero? (£340ish to call)


I don't know how wide this guy defends his straddle, but I imagine his range includes the bulk of suited hands as seems standard in these games. His value range is fairly narrow here, one combo of K2s and K3s each and three combos of 32s, plus 22 and 33. Preflop and flop seem standard to me, so the question is how wide should I be calling down on the turn/river? Jh in my hand hurts me as it removes some of his flush draw combos. Some gutshots got there on the turn, and any flop bluffs containing spades now get there too. His flop value range is pretty narrow though, but then again I probably don't isolate 33 or 22 here so I can't really have many nut hands here either. I felt like in the moment the 'optimal' play is to call the turn and evaluate rivers, is this line of thinking correct?

Comments

  • JLBJJLBJ Posts: 172Subscriber
    This is the perfect hand to check with on the flop heads-up for pot control.

    What hands are you getting value from on the flop? Sure, he might call a bet with QQ-77 on this board, but you’re not getting three streets of value from those hands. There’s a flush draw out there, but you have a heart in your hand.

    If you check the flop, now you have a great bluff-catcher if he starts betting.

    As played ... you said he doesn’t get out of line, right? Is he the type of player to just take the nut flush draw, check-raise the flop, then bet turn, move all-in on the river as a bluff?

    Even though you have a king, I could see him showing up with AK here in addition to the sets.

    It’s a fold as played, but life’s easier with a check on the flop.
  • steelwheel13steelwheel13 Posts: 10Subscriber
    Checking flop was something I hadn't considered really. I figured I was better off getting value now vs his worse Kx and draws, being that pot control isn't usually a big consideration in cash games. From a theory standpoint though, this is one of the middling kings I can have here (I isolate the limper preflop with AK-KT, K9s) and might therefore go into a checking range. One to think about, for sure.

    As played, I don't know if he's the type to c/r the NFD and barrel off like this as I've never seen him do it. He's known to be tight and generally when I see him betting multiple streets he tends to have it (even if 'it' might be a slightly overplayed overpair or something), but he's also not scared money either and busting/reloading a 400bb stack doesn't bother him.

    AK was a consideration for sure yes, although I think he 3bets this with at least some frequency pre.
  • XbobloveXboblove Posts: 120Member
    In general check raise bet bet is often a flush/busted draw line but given the flop bet sizing, it really looks valuey given hero's flop bet size. Also villain had action behind preflop and didn't reraise, at these stakes that reads strong. It's polar whatever it is. Getting a good price I bias toward a call but there is a lot of information that says we're no good.

    My flop bet is 20 FWIW.
  • JLBJJLBJ Posts: 172Subscriber
    My thinking on checking back flop is he won’t have many worse kings. I reread the original post again. You think he’s calling a 6x raise that wide, including any suited king? Obviously that changes things if his range is that wide, but I still think good things happen when you check here.
  • steelwheel13steelwheel13 Posts: 10Subscriber
    It's hard to say what exactly his straddle defense range is, but the norm in these games is that people defend very liberally, even those players who are otherwise tighter and less spewy postflop. A lot of random suited hands, certainly weaker than Kxs.

    It's been a while since I was playing regularly so I'm quite rusty, but when I was playing more often a year or so ago I had been studying more optimal/equilibrium lines and was checking these spots much more often. Checking was actually my first thought but I was cognizant of not getting bogged down in GTO at a live low stakes game and decided to just go for value. Possibly a mistake.

    Regards sizing, my thoughts were similar to the reasons for betting. I think his calling range (Kx and flush draws) is pretty size inelastic on the flop so this felt like the time to go for value. Not to say that thinking is right, just that's what went through my head at the time. I can actually see an argument for going bigger than this too?
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,115Administrator, LeadPro
    From the feedback that I am getting from a lot of the 5-5 regs in LA during my challenge, flop is a simple fold. Also I would be concerned occasionally with actually being behind a hand like KQ or even AK. If I made it to the river with a heart in my hand and given this line I would fold. A lot of the combo draws pair up (5 x) and you usually dont see players turning those hands into bluffs.
  • steelwheel13steelwheel13 Posts: 10Subscriber
    Thanks for the replies all.

    In the end I folded the river fairly quickly. He turned over 9d 6d for a complete airball bluff, which ties in with how wide I see people defend straddles in this game but completely flew in the face of how I'd seen this guy play postflop in the past.

    He commented 'I only did that cause I know you're good enough to fold KQ' (backhanded compliment, heh) so I at least give him credit for knowing his rivered 9 was no good and following through on the bluff.

    What adjustments would you make to this guy in future having seen this hand? I wouldn't expect him to run any massive bluffs against me now for a good while after showing this one down.
  • hustlinhustlin Posts: 362Subscriber
    the crucial part in this hand is the turn.
    if you do call the turn technically GTO ur suppose to call the river. as nothing has changed on the board.

    its either a missed flush or hand like 2 pair+

    as played I would fold the river.
    just remember the turn is the key spot here. this is were you make the real decision on how to proceed.

    your KJo here is essentially the same as AK, AA in this spot. would you fold or call AK in this same spot??
  • steelwheel13steelwheel13 Posts: 10Subscriber
    I take the same line with all those hands (and underpairs too, if I happened to bet them on flop) as the flop c/r is really only repping AK+ for value. Hand equivalency comes into play; as you say, opponent's whole value range beats any one pair hand we have here.

    Feels as if this should be a calldown hand given his range and the blocker effect to K2s/K3s, but I just thought there's so little chance of him doing this as a bluff that even though his value range is very narrow, he just must have one of those combos. I was wrong!
    Thanked by 1hustlin
  • hustlinhustlin Posts: 362Subscriber
    yah I agree . this is just an outlier in live games. Its soooo rare to see a triple barrel bluff . I wouldn't even sweat it. tip my hat off to this guy.

    its just one of those times that we actually do make an exploitative fold, it comes and bites us in the ass haha.
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