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Bottom 2 on wet board..

292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
edited September 2018 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
1/3 buy ins 100/500 Both Villains bought in for around 200 /250
Hero (57- probably has tighter image than actual play) has both villains covered, V-1 has about 175 to start, V-2 maybe 125.
Hero UTG QJ spades in straddled pot, opens for 20...MP1 calls...MP2 calls...everyone else folds..this is a pretty large open in this game...most don't adjust their opening bet..for the straddle enough..MP1, bit of a young tight player, MP2 wider range - will gamble, straddler super tight.

Flop = JH AD QD... pot = 70 -rake, Hero leads 35..MP1 calls..MP2 raises to 125..so 90 to win 245 with a short stack behind..thoughts?
I shoved MP2 still has chips after his bet....MP1, calls- has KJDD, and MP2 has AK one diamond..Turn and river are blanks...Yay us, but just curious if we ever consider fold, also thoughts on opening amount?

Comments

  • SonnySonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    $20 open over a $6 straddle is a good sizing. But! I don't know if I'm a giant fan of opening QJ suited basically UTG.

    After that though since this is a straddled pot our opponents essentally each have less than 20BB, I don't see how we can ever bet/fold for these amounts. Check/folding is the only other option where we just don't get it in and thats super weak too. So I don't see you ever not just getting it in.
    Thanked by 1292YBlock
  • 292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    But! I don't know if I'm a giant fan of opening QJ suited basically UTG

    Thanks Sonny, My thinking here is the hand is too good to fold, so I'd rather lead,lead a little large, ..it gives me the option to continuation bet on any A or K uncoordinated board and the opening bet narrows the field. It's a little bit of pot control.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    Bottom 2 pair beats none of his strong hands. Usually bottom 2 pair is a bet fold or raise fold hand. In this specific case look at your situation. You raised a straddled pot UTG. Their calling range is stronger. You bet a board that smashes your range and you still got raised. Even if they had some goofy hand like Axdd these are small in combos compared to the hands that crush you. You'd probably need like 6:1 to call here considering all combos.

    So now you are getting 2.5:1 with a loose gambler who seems like is all in and a tight caller. Off the top of my head you are fucked. If you were heads up..... 16 combos of nuts, 2 combos of big draw, 2 combos of sets, 6 combos T2P, 6 combos of M2P. You are just fucked. Even AK has 9 outs. I can't put any many bluffs in this guys range.

    As for raising QJs UTG. Sure you can. Depends on the table. Usually raising less than a premium hand requires a fairly passive table. You want ~1-3 callers averaging 2. Also depends on stacks. If they are short not a good idea to raise.
  • 292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    Hmm - do you play low stakes often? There's no way I'm not ahead 50%+ of the time here. JJ QQ KK AK probably raise pre-flop...I'm specifically worried about AJ / AQ = but I block both of these. MP1 is tight and on a draw for sure when he just calls my 35 bet, and doesn't shove himself...Appreciate and agree with some of your analysis but this:
    You'd probably need like 6:1 to call here considering all combos
    is way too tight at low stakes. Also if I think MP1 is calling off his remaining stack my ratio is more like 3.5 :1
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    edited September 2018
    If you're a little unsure of what your opening ranges should be, there is a pf range file that is downloadable in KI's second Fastrack video.

    If we were deeper stacked against these V's, I might be a little more concerned. As is, I think we should just get it in. There will be enough draws and Ax hands that we beat that I could not fold given these odds.

    PS: I havent looked at the spoiler yet. I'll wait til you get a few more comments.
    Thanked by 1292YBlock
  • SonnySonny Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    I
    292YBlock wrote: »
    Hmm - do you play low stakes often? There's no way I'm not ahead 50%+ of the time here. JJ QQ KK AK probably raise pre-flop...

    I actually think at the lower stakes JJ QQ and AK raise less over a $20 open at low stakes than high stakes.

    The problem with this hand is the stack depth. I think at a stack depth of 100BB, JJ and QQ might just call pre at $1/2 and $1/3, but with stacks of just over $100 they might just get it in pre.

    I don't love our hand if we are deeper. I think Fuzzy is correct that we're not beating a lot. But I also think that a guy is going with an Ace enough of the time that our bottom two is more than likely a call at these stack depths in a straddled pot. I also think it somewhat depends on how much the opponent bought in for. A guy who buys in for $500 and is down to $125 is probably going to be playing looser than a guy who bought in for $150 and is doen to $125.

    And again at $1/3 I don't really love the open UTG with the QJ suited. These games play really nitty a lot of the times so even if we do make just top pair, we could very well be in trouble. We definately can't take QJ for 3 streets with just top pair.
    From lmiddle or late? Open it all day, I just think from UTG and UTG+1 at least its probably a fold. But I also think AQ off can be folded UTG sometimes also, so my preflop is pretty nitty... but they say 100BB games are all about preflop.

    Thanked by 1292YBlock
  • hustlinhustlin Posts: 362Subscriber
    odds are really really good for a call. PSR for you 2.5 - 1. Even TPTK is essentially committed. You got bottom 2 which is even better.

    As played I would most likely call it off. Odds are amazing. U got a gambler jamming. Which I'm loving this spot.
    However do be concerned with villain behind you. If you perceive his as crazy strong here.... than a hero fold is possible. However you MUST have a really really good read to make this fold. Otherwise its a pretty straight forward hand to call off your entire chips.

    The pot is straddled and everyone has relative short stacks. like 20-30bbs starting effective lol.
    Thanked by 1292YBlock
  • hustlinhustlin Posts: 362Subscriber
    Also I like your open. QJs yah its a little too tight to fold. and a little too nitty to just call. So I like the raise.
    Calling is okkk once in a while.

    Thanked by 1292YBlock
  • 292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
    hustlin wrote: »
    However do be concerned with villain behind you. If you perceive his as crazy strong here.... than a hero fold is possible. However you MUST have a really really good read to make this fold.
    Yeah I was 100% confident that V-1 (shortest stack) was on a draw, played enough with him - he's putting it all in when I lead if he has a made hand. Thanks for the feedback!

  • ohsnapzbrahohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    This seems more like a tournament hand than a cash hand. Reason being, we're against two Vs that basically have under 30bb, and the pot is now 11bb. This short, I don't think we should ever fold two pair on the flop.

    If we dissect it a little further, there are a lot - LOT - of AK here that players don't necessarily 3bet preflop like they should. If he 3bets none of them, there are 12 AK combos compared to 12 total combos of AQ and AJ - before considering an ATs. We're getting 3 to 1, so we need roughly 25% equity. I'm adding QQ and JJ and messing around with partials and am still not able to get under 25% equity (btw, the 3:1 comes from the pot. Pot size is actually 265. 70 + (35x2) + 125 = 265)

    FWIW, I'm not advocating calling, I'm advocating jamming to shut out the other player's equity.

    If we had normal stack depth, so about 50bb accounting for the straddle, I'm more willing to fold. The deeper rec players are, the less likely they are to fastplay one pair hand postflop, like AK here. We don't have that stack depth though, so fastplaying top pair hands goes through the roof.

    EDIT: I didn't account for the straight, but even adding it to his strongest possible range still doesn't put us under 25% equity.
  • 292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
    FWIW, I'm not advocating calling, I'm advocating jamming to shut out the other player's equity.
    You do realize MPI, has about 70 behind and MP2 (the raiser) about half that...nobody is folding because of the Jam, although I did just that. Are you advocating Jamming the flop?


  • ohsnapzbrahohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    You do realize MPI, has about 70 behind and MP2 (the raiser) about half that...nobody is folding because of the Jam, although I did just that. Are you advocating Jamming the flop?

    Who is who? Is MP1 V1 who has 175 to start? That's how it seems in the post, and that's how I based the hand on, but is never really clarified.
  • 292YBlock292YBlock Posts: 101Subscriber
    edited October 2018
    Who is who? Is MP1 V1 who has 175 to start? That's how it seems in the post, and that's how I based the hand on, but is never really clarified.
    My Bad: MP1/V-2 has 125 to start, MP2/V-1 has about 175. I'm first to act. I can see the confusion, thanks.

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