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Rivered Top-two against tricky reg

Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
edited December 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
1/3, like 500 effective. Villain, a somewhat tricky reg, opens to 15, UTG. One caller in between and I call with KQ off from like MP, button calls as well, we go 4 ways to the flop. (Thoughts on folding/three betting in this configuration?).

Flop is KJ8 rainbow. UTG checks, field guy checks, I bet 25. Button calls, UTG calls, field guy folds.

Turn is an offsuit 8. Think that's a pretty good card, as none of the straight draws improve and no one should really have an 8. Checks to me, I bet 50. Button folds, UTG calls.

River is a Queen. UTG leads for 125 into a pot of like 225, so it's 340 125 to call. Getting like 2.75 to 1. So what's your play?

Thoughts are appericated gents.

Updated with results:

I called after thinking the hand through, and not being able to range him very accurately because of the weirdness of the hand. He tables JJ, for middle set that boated up on turn.


  • Jack7777Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    I make reluctant call, 5bb open is a lot. Position, I bet 45-50 on the flop. 25 gives great odds to anybody to call after first caller. I shut it down when the second 8 hits. Why wouldn't anybody play A8ss? 78ss? 89ss? When you bet higher on the flop you chase out some bottom pair hands. Anybody betting into a paired board is trouble.
  • Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
    I agree the sizing should have been larger. The rec player on the button wasn't closing the action and wasn't the type to call with third pair, even getting good odds. UTG doesn't have very many eights in his range, so I'd say that's pretty much a brick under the circumstances. Also, though I agree about the sizing being too small, a 40 or 50 bet would be pretty huge on for the games I play, into a 60 dollar pot.
  • MastaC707MastaC707 Posts: 95Subscriber
    edited December 2017
    You say he's tricky, what do you mean by that? Would he check AA AK AA here? If he will, I might check behind looking to get 2 streets this deep. If I bet, as there are merits to that too, I probably bet in the 35-45 range. The issue is you are trying to get value from some weak hands and weak draws. So, if your gonna bet flop, you need to bet smaller to get those couple streets. This might be a case where it's easier to get called by K10 for two larger bets by checking the flop and betting turn/river. And calling a bet on the flop from player behind you.

    If I bet, esp your sizing, I might check this turn as I expect to get called very light from the BTN, so he will have some 8s. But I'd probably just bet smallish again. Like 1/3 pot. There are still a lot of hands that will call you here, but I think most of those hands will fold to a larger bet. So you're really trying to go very gently here.

    River as played. Gotta call. It's a weird lead out. A10xx that turned a FD got there AA still good, unlikely he has KK or JJ, and QQ just got there, but he might wave the flag on QQ on turn. Plus we also block QQ. So not a ton of stuff beats us. I call and adjust my strategy against him based on what he shows.

  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    This is either a 3 or fold for me pre. If he's generic TAG, with positionally-aware rfi range, it's an easy fold. I am not a fan of flatting a hand with some RIO, esp in MP where we often won't have last position or could get squeezed ourselves. If I think he's too light from EP, and with a dead-money caller in the middle, KQo is a great squeeze candidate.

    I studied all my vpip hands last year for about 6 months, and flatting-then-folding pre was a major leak for me.
  • Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
    @CycleV I actually totally agree about the fold or three-bet pre. Also agree that a fold is probably the better move. Preflop this dude doesn't get too out of line, and KQ off is like the bottom of a reasonable UTG open range, so if I call I have position but he has the initiative and a stronger range.

    As to his trickiness, yes, he is capable of checking back AA/AK, a flopped set/two pair. He is also capable of running weird air-ball bluffs.


    I agree with your underlying point, e.g we are only getting two streets with this hand, but I can't see checking back top pair on a fairly wet board 4-ways. There are just too many draws that might peal light or hands that we are just letting free roll us for the pot (I.e all whiffed pocket pairs that won't point a dine more in unless they set up on us). So I think a bet, on the smaller side is in order, maybe 35. Same thing goes for the turn, I just don't think button is pealing with bottom pair, in a four way pot, with two people left to act behind him, even if he is getting good odds. So I do think the 8 is a blank. I think that means we bet small on turn also, but not as small as I did.
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    I agree you should bet the flop, but I think I strongly feel that we should bet pretty large on a soaking wet board. By not betting much, we're allowing callers to make a correct play (which basically means we made an incorrect one), and/or we open ourselves up to a c/r, putting us in a difficult spot (which for me, increases the likelihood I'll make a mistake).
  • Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
    Yeah, I think in a tougher game that's totally sound logic. Everyone in this hand though, with the exception of the main villain is a very weak bad rec. They will never check raise with out a two pair plus hand, etc. bigger is better for sure, but these guys aren't going to peal with like middle or bottom pair, even if they should given odds. Also, if the board was flushing I think we have to go bigger, obviously. But like 50 would be a huge bet for this game. Like the biggest flop bet in the last two hours big.
  • Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
    Conclusion: I called, he tables Pocket jackets, for middle set turned jacks full.
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    I realize it's a bit nitty but I just fold this offsuit pre. It plays pretty terrible against an EP 5x. It also plays terrible in a multiway pot. Not alot of upside.

    As played it's a begrudging call I think.
  • Jesse_The_SuitJesse_The_Suit Posts: 493Subscriber, Professional
    Yup, I agree biggest mistake was calling pre.
  • kaboojiekaboojie Posts: 518Subscriber
    As stated, I think fold or 3! Pre is better than calling.

    Flop and turn bets are fine.

    River is pretty easy call. You're probably behind, but pot odds are too good to fold.

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