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What do you do with KcKs facing fourbet?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
my image sucks.. been losing all night.. In the game for 4000... 5/5 300-1000..

V1 is a reg pro. ok player ..will pot control and doesn't bet too thin on the river.. he generally only 3 and 4 bets with QQ+.. I am not sure he would be 4! with AK as I have not every seen him do it..

V2 is a rec that I have not played with before. my sense is he was playing the daily tournament, busted and is now playing cash. He seems aggro in too many spots.. doesn't like to fold either from what I have seen.

effective stacks are 1200.. both reg pro and rec have me covered..

I open to $20 utg with K K

V2 is in utg1 and three bets to $80..folds to V1 on btn and he fourbets to $220.. If I 5 bet I think I get QQ to fold and only get called by AA.. as I think v2 has very few AKs in his range I decide to flat.. especially with rec behind me. rec calls..

pot $670 ish Flop 8 5 3 rainbow.. I check rec checks V1 bets $330.. I call and rec calls!

pot $1600 ish.. turn 9 putting backdoor clubs (of which I think there are few flush draws if any).. I check rec checks and reg checks..

River K :s:




  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    I like pre personally I don't want to 5! Here. Feel like we are ahead of his 4! Or we could be anyways.

    Yea I like they it's been played. Feel like we got lucky then wen check check check. And now on river I'm betting 500. I know we can shove but just want the highest chance of getting called here. Might not make any difference

    I'm assuming rec has a straight here?
  • DrSpaceDrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    can consider a block bet on the river -- depends on what you think rec. is up to and how V1 reacts to the obvious Jam.
  • sivaddivadsivaddivad Posts: 341Subscriber
    I would just move in here. When I'm losing, people tend to call more if they are paying attention. The pot is huge and there are many worse hands that will probably call.
    Thanked by 1JKH
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    I think I generally would 5bet this pre, but if you're image is super tight and you haven't been 3betting a lot, I guess you can flat, but it's not great OOP vs 2 people. :yell:
    You said V2 has been pretty aggro, so V1 pro definitely picked up on it, which means his 4betting range should def be wide enough to have JJ, AK maybe even AQs and TT.

    Anyway, if I did decide to flat, given your description of V1 (that he doesn't v-bet thinly and pot controls) I would either go: donk bet/bet/bet or x/c - bet/bet
    On this super dry flop I think x/c - bet/bet is good.

    As played I'm betting 475 on river, cause I don't think V2 has much (hopefully he makes a move) and V1 only gonna call a big bet with AA or AK (we block lots of combos of AK)
    We also look like we might have AK, so again - hard for him to call a big bet.
    So basically we're just looking for a hero call from something very weak from V1 or a spaz from V2
  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    If Villain was stronger in his 4!, why would he 4! here? Isnt he really putting lot pf pressure on Hammah UTG open? Him flatting BTN allows Hammah to flat her UTG range and Villain has BTN with a rec in between.

    He 4! to iso rec and have position and get FE vs Hammah, I think this could be likely.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    V2 is a reg who sits there doesnt make many moves and was playing a video game on his phone in between hands.. so I really don't think his 4 betting range was wide 1) he might have noticed how many hands V2 was playing 2) he is going to generally only 3! my utg open with a strong hand..

  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    So the intial 3! Villain is strong and the 4! villain doesnt seem out of line. I mean can we 5! then? us blocking so many AK hands, better to flat right pre?

    post, not sure how else we can play, not talkig about river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Pre I think with the rec player in between I shouldn't ever 5 bet here.. V1 is not an idiot .. and if I 5 bet as I said I think he only ships with AA and maybe calls with that I think he would fold everything else..

    I considered leading turn.... in hindsight given how much he does pot control I probably should have bet say $350 or so..
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    edited October 2017
    Nice hand. I'd shove, but a small bet isn't bad either.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    well based on preflop lines I thought V1 probably had QQs.. so anything I bet I think he folds.. unless he check back AA which I think is unlikely not impossible but unlikely..

    For me to be able to check raise I have to think with a pretty high frequency that either V1 or V2 will bet this river if I check. I am virtually 100% sure that V1 would check if both V2 and I check .. V2 is an unknonwn and I didn't feel comfortable taking that chance..

    So I shipped.. with 700 left I thin someone will call $700 pretty much as likely as say $500.. now I could have bet something stupid like $300.. but that almost looks stronger.. and again I still think V1 is likely to fold that.. I was honestly hoping that V2 would call given the action but he snap folded.. V1 tanked forever but finally folded too..

    I think given my read I can lead the turn for something like $350 .. V1 pot controls turn so often I think that was my chance.. then its only $400 at most on the river so i can easily get my stack in.. As a side benefit, V2 is in between so there is a good chance he calls given he called the $330 on the flop and I get both to pay me off..

    thanks for all the responses!

  • neverlearn2neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    We are leading turn because we never have AK here and villain thinks we play KK differently pre flop.

    Ok I can see that.
  • maphacksmaphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    nice river. allin. too risky to check and maybe miss value from the recs QQ/JJ. if the pro has AK he will call anyways.
  • brickbrick Posts: 129Subscriber
    Would he call an all-in with JJ/QQ?

    Would he ever raise river with AA? Tempted to bet 350 on river, but depends on answers to above questions.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    So I played with villain last night and he swears he had AA.. he also swears he would have value bet the river had I checked.. I don't buy it. He is not that thin a value bettor and I think he was alot more worried about the fish in between us and the pot was already 1800..

    He also said he thought I had 900 and that "he counted" I don't see how he could get it so far off.. I have my white chips on top, there were only 2 and I have 5 stacks of $5.. plus a little more.. he said he might have called for $700 but not for $900. I think he thinks he answered that truthfully but i dont buy it..

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,577Subscriber
    My personal thinking is that an "ok" reg isn't calling $700 on the river all in. That is just too large of an absolute amount. I usually find ok regs don't call off that much. They need a standard static reason. So if you offer him 4:1 here I think he calls or about $400.

    Pot's too big to fold

    Also your hand looks like KK when you shove. You need to give him a text book reason to call because he isn't calling a huge absolute bet of $700. It's beyond his comfort zone. A smaller bet also looks bluffy.

    In a vacuum yea I think it's a shove. But vs a thinking good player.
  • ohsnapzbrahohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    Line seems fine. Part of me - like, a 10% part of me - is tempted to just fold pre to the cold 4bet from the tight V. That may be a bit too nitty though.

    Everything seems fine, then we jam and hope to get called by...IDK, a set of 9's or AA.
  • FredFred Posts: 137Subscriber
    edited October 2017
    Have you seen him 4! With QQ before? If so I'm sure he'll be doing it with AK too and I would just get it in. However......... with your description of villain I can't imagine him cold 4! With QQ as he sounds like a typical live nitty player therefor it's a fold pre. We cannot just call to see where we're at Or to keep QQ in calling is the worst possible play we can make, were essentially set mining and were not getting the odds, we're out of position on every street in a huge pot against another reg. just decide Pre flop to go with it or to fold. I mean you never even got paid when you hit in a 4! Pot this again says he is a typical nitty pro player.
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