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$2/$5: Weird preflop spot with KQo. Call/4bet or fold?

I open KQo UTG+1 to $25 over UTG fish's limp; TAG grinder on the aggro side who posted $5 behind the button (CO) 3-bets to $85. My read is that he sees this as good spot to defend his $5 in position. I've seen him 3-bet light in and out of position a number of times; it's something he does regularly. TAG grinder on the button very surprisingly flats, fish folds and it's on us.

Stacks: Me and CO $1500 each. Button $1000.

What should we do and why?

Comments

  • Rysher8Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    Just fold. We're out of position with a hand that's often dominated. The TAG grinder flatting on the button seals it. There is almost no flop that's good for us when facing pressure post.

    This also seems like an especially bad spot to 4-bet light. With an early position raise and a 3-bet in front of him, and with the aggressive early position raiser still to act behind him, grinder TAG #2 could be as strong as KK. I'd give him a likely range of 1010-KK, AK and AQs. Not good for us. Now even though we've seen TAG grinder #1 3-bet light before, that doesn't mean he is now. He's a good player showing strength against an early position raiser, and his range is completely uncapped. We could get very lucky and be raising into a light 3-bet AND the bottom of the button's range, but that is extremely optimistic. Finally if we 4-bet and get called in either spot, pot odds are going to compel us to stack off on a K or Q high flop, and there's a good chance we'll be doing it against a hand that owns us.
    Thanked by 1RogerHardy
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Rysher8 wrote: »
    Just fold. We're out of position with a hand that's often dominated. The TAG grinder flatting on the button seals it. There is almost no flop that's good for us when facing pressure post.

    This also seems like an especially bad spot to 4-bet light. With an early position raise and a 3-bet in front of him, and with the aggressive early position raiser still to act behind him, grinder TAG #2 could be as strong as KK. I'd give him a likely range of 1010-KK, AK and AQs. Not good for us. Now even though we've seen TAG grinder #1 3-bet light before, that doesn't mean he is now. He's a good player showing strength against an early position raiser, and his range is completely uncapped. We could get very lucky and be raising into a light 3-bet AND the bottom of the button's range, but that is extremely optimistic. Finally if we 4-bet and get called in either spot, pot odds are going to compel us to stack off on a K or Q high flop, and there's a good chance we'll be doing it against a hand that owns us.

    Yes but we block QQ,KK and AK.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Does your answer change if button wasn't in the picture?
  • MonadPrimeMonadPrime Posts: 803Member
    TAG OTB who cold called concerns me enough to fold. 4! seems like a better play HU if read is correct.
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Fold or make it $300. If your reads are right and CO is squeezing and BTN is just playing odds with AJs or something then 4! should get through. This comes down to their image of you. Do they know you and think you are any good? Are you 3 leveling each other all night etc. If they see you as TAG semi unknown I make it $300. If there are other dynamics like a lot of 4!/5! shoving PF I may just let it go. Also do you change your PF raise sizes in a way the $25 means anything? This hand is a lot of live intangibles.
  • Rysher8Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    Joanna wrote: »
    Does your answer change if button wasn't in the picture?

    Yes absolutely. I would personally probably still fold with this hand out of position (super nitty I know) but if we've really seen this guy 3-bet light multiple times already in this session, I think you're right that he could see this as a good time for another. And as you mentioned, we do have blockers against KK QQ and AK. You could probably make it $250 and get a good amount of folds.

  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    Not a bad spot to over limp, AP just fold.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    I wouldn't out too much stock into him defending his blind post. That's a very specific assumption and you need a good sample size to be confident in that read.

    Having said that, I would probably 4 fold most of the times. You can 4 bet occasionally if your image is good. It can't be that bad, I am always in favor of creating aggressive dynamic. It pushes people out of their comfort zone and gets them to make mistakes.
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    this is a great spot to 4 bet until the tag grinder calls OTB. have you seen this guy 4 bet before? does he have a 4bet range besides AA? can he have a hand like KK here?

    i would 4 bet if the tag grinder otb folded. as played i would only 4bet with a really nitty image. but i would recommend folding.
    Thanked by 1MonadPrime
  • IdlecaillouIdlecaillou Posts: 121Subscriber
    I'm folding and looking for a better spot.
    I feel like with two competent players bpwith deep stacks behind I'd rather be in position
    4 bets wins probably 75 percent of time but when I doesn't your gonna be in a massive pot with a marginal hand so it might not even out the math.
    Just my thoughts
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