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$2/$5: Was this Spew? Cray Cray Line $1000 Deep 4-Bet Pot vs 3-bet-happy Button

$1000 eff. I open J :s: T :s: UTG to $20. Button is super 3-bet happy, 3-betting like at least 20%+ and c-betting a ton. Button makes it $70. I make it $200, he flats.

Flop: K :s: Q 6 $407 I check, B bets $230... I CRAI.

Feedback on all streets please.

Comments

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Don't 4 bet bluff this hand, it is far to good to 4 bet bluff. Just call and take a flop. 4 bet bluff a hand like A5-2s, AJo, 76s, 65s.

    Flop i'm fine, just hope you play QQ or sometime like this sometimes.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    I like it. Against a monkey 3 bettor, 4 bet everything is decent strategy until they adjust. Also gives you board coverage. Sucks that you have to fold to a 5 bet shove, but that's life.

    Against a reasonable 3 bettor, I would just call this preflop.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    The best way to deal with psychopaths is to be psychotic. Once they recognize you are not afraid to die and have a bankroll large enough to go to war, they will leave you alone.
    Thanked by 2Thehammah chizler62
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    It might help to have a little bit of info on the hero and image. Has the hero been super aggro showing down J high after 4 betting pre? Or have you had it up til now? Do u have history/dynamic with the villain ?
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    We can bluff but bluffing this hand is just a waste. Not only do we not have any blockers which means we will get called more but getting 5 bet off a hand this good is a disaster.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    We can bluff but bluffing this hand is just a waste. Not only do we not have any blockers which means we will get called more but getting 5 bet off a hand this good is a disaster.

    having blockers to TT or JJ isnt good enough in this spot. I would absolutely call pre NOT 4bet with a hand that has so much potential postflop..

    But I also agree that players like this use others fear of busting in big pots to pressure their opponents.. If you show that you will not play into this then they will go hard against other easier targets.

    So my question to you is many players will not bet big like this when the pot gets bigger.. sure they push when they have the lead and the pot is relatively small. but he called your 4 bet and now bet half pot here. Pot is going to be .... 1400 ish 570 to call. he is almost getting 3:1.. I would be hard pressed to think I am getting any fold equity there.. If I were villain and I actually had top pair I am going to have to call off..Of course this is assuming your image isnt of a complete nit..

    Also this line looks pretty much FOS most of the time since most players wouldnt check as they would be very afraid it would get checked through. So "stack a donk" is pretty good when you actually have something not when you are drawing to something.

    Another thing to consider is with your specific oesd you cant hit top pair and win. If you had say JT on 89 board I would like it alot alot better.. there if villain has say AK you overcards are good.. On this flop against his 3 bet call 4 bet bet line I think it hits his range rather well.. And considering giving him almost 3:1 on a ship I dont like it..

    I would rather just lead out for say $275 and see what he does.. There you can win if he has say a pair like 88-22 (except the 66s) and it would be really hard for him to raise you without KQ+ even with AK I dont think he raises you..


    So I really really don't like your line AT ALL.. SPEW!! unnecessarily too.. I think you got your ego upity or a little tilty/frustration here a bit.. You would have done soo soo much better if you had done a similar line with AK..

    Against these types of players you really have to be even more patient then normal. If you have an option to change tables I do.. there are just so many easier spots in poker that you dont need to do this against this type of player..

    that said looks like you must have gotten lucky or you wouldnt have posted the hand.. what backdoor-ed a flush?? what he have AA set of queens?

    :wink:
    Thanked by 1chizler62
  • bleedtiltbleedtilt Posts: 126Subscriber
    I would probably limp preflop.
    Call the 3bet as played.
    As played i dont like the CRAI. Are you ever doing this with a set? Doubtful. just lead yourself.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited March 2017
    This confirms my suspicions that this is spew. I should've flatted pre or folded. And postflop my bluff had no fold equity as V was committed. It's also true that I was probably emotionally tilted and was sick of this person 3-betting everyone OTB. Also the 4-bet flat is really strong and the flops smashed his 4b flat range.

    I think I could not have played the hand any worse! :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Next question: is folding pre just too weak?
  • bingyianbingyian Posts: 90Subscriber
    i don't think you're giving up much by open folding JTs utg. JTs definitely not in my utg open range
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    You shouldn't fold a hand that could flop well @150/200BB eff.stacks from any position.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    edited March 2017
    I think you guys are being result oriented. This is a creative 4 bet that very few players have the courage to even think of making. We have the right kind of aggro opponent that we can justify 4 betting wide. I wouldn't fall into group think and just choose the safe option because it feels right. JTs is a premium bluffing hand preflop and when raised utg it is strictly as a bluff. I don't see much wrong with continuing to bluff with it facing a 3 bet.

    If we were in mp or Hj or Co I can see just calLing the 3 bet, because now JTs is in the middle of our range. We have many worse suited connectors that we might use for a 4 bet bluff like 67s. When we raise utg, 9ts is probably the bottom of our raising range. So jTs is quite low in our utg range imo.
  • pray4blankpray4blank Posts: 141Subscriber
    edited March 2017
    So...I don't see many people asking whether or not we even think this person folds to a 4 bet this size with any reasonable frequency. In my experience, maniac 3 bettors don't fold to small 4 bets in position very often.

    For non-folding maniacal 3 betters, 4 bet bluffing isn't the counter. Opening a stronger range and 4 betting wider for value should be the adjustment.

    ...

    Now if he does fold a good portion of the time, we can actually start to narrow down how often we should 4 bet, and then use that information to look for a profitable range.
    Thanked by 1Thehammah
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    iamallin wrote: »
    I think you guys are being result oriented. This is a creative 4 bet that very few players have the courage to even think of making. We have the right kind of aggro opponent that we can justify 4 betting wide. I wouldn't fall into group think and just choose the safe option because it feels right. JTs is a premium bluffing hand preflop and when raised utg it is strictly as a bluff. I don't see much wrong with continuing to bluff with it facing a 3 bet.

    If we were in mp or Hj or Co I can see just calLing the 3 bet, because now JTs is in the middle of our range. We have many worse suited connectors that we might use for a 4 bet bluff like 67s. When we raise utg, 9ts is probably the bottom of our raising range. So jTs is quite low in our utg range imo.

    It's not the 4 bet per se but with JTss I dont like it.

    1) Hard for us and the villain to both flop really big unless it exactly KQ9 or KQA assuming he is calling a 4 bet with a better range

    2) I prefer blockers to 4 bet bluff with and JTss isnt strong enough to 4 bet on its own.. even against a laggy..we are oop and I prefer to see flops and use his aggression against himself by hero calling lightly.

    3) when villains is in position and you are stationing him its very likely he will check back rivers with alot of value hands and bet his bluffs thinking you dont hand read and a scary board will do the trick. In these spots I am looking for any kind of betting tell as many times these players are NOT balanced they bet big with bluffs and much smaller when thin value betting..
    Thanked by 1stayinschool
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    How you play this is totally dependent on the villain preflop. If he calls 4bs, with what. If you just call the 3b OOP how he plays post flop, etc. You can do either.
  • pocket11spocket11s Posts: 144Subscriber
    Interested in results OP.
  • CountRoblivionCountRoblivion Posts: 54Member
    As chilidog noted, I think the crux of the matter of whether this was a good 4bet depends on hero's image. How often are you opening utg, how aggro are you getting, how much history do you have with this specific villain? I like the flop play, but again think it hinges very directly on your image and relationship with the villain.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    pocket11s wrote: »
    Interested in results OP.

    v had qq, i got stacked.

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