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$2/$5: SB vs Button 3-Bet Pot Postflop

JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
edited March 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$1600 eff. TAGgy button opens to $20, I make it $80 in SB with black 66, B flats.

Flop: J 8 5 :s: $165

1. What do you think of my 3-bet?
2. What's our plan postflop given this flop?

Comments

  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    i dont like 3 betting with hands that have very little barreling equity. i would much rather 3bet a hand like 56s than 66, precisely because of the situation you find yourself in.
    Thanked by 2chizler62 sivaddivad
  • Rysher8Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    I agree with squish that 3 betting with a small pocket pair puts you in a super difficult position postflop. He can open from the button pretty wide, but once he calls $80 you're in trouble. I put his range somewhere around AK, AQ, 1010 JJ QQ. I think your best postflop line is to check/fold flop, check/fold turn, and bet $80 on a blank river for value.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    i dont like 3 betting with hands that have very little barreling equity. i would much rather 3bet a hand like 56s than 66, precisely because of the situation you find yourself in.

    So what do you do with 66 in this spot?
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    edited March 2017
    how competent is the villain? how thin does he v bet? will he barrel with overs?

    against most i would default to check/call flop, and prolly check fold the turn unless its a 4,6 or 7 in which case i most likely check raise.
  • Rysher8Rysher8 Posts: 234Subscriber
    how competent is the villain? how thin does he v bet? will he barrel with overs?

    against most i would default to check/call flop, and prolly check fold the turn unless its a 4,6 or 7 in which case i most likely check raise.

    I think a check/call on the flop is pretty optimistic. When we check, I think we'll rarely see an unpaired hand take an immediate shot. Even if our plan is to get aggressive on the turn with the cards you mentioned (an idea I love against a tight player) we're only talking about a ~20% probability, then he has to bet again, and the bluff has to work. That's a lot to ask.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    how competent is the villain? how thin does he v bet? will he barrel with overs?

    against most i would default to check/call flop, and prolly check fold the turn unless its a 4,6 or 7 in which case i most likely check raise.

    Thanks. I apologize for not being more clear. I meant more like: what are you doing with 66 PREFLOP in this spot? And for that matter what are you doing with your whole range? What are you calling, folding and 3-betting?
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    Check fold seems okay.

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Depends how you want to play your strategy... If you are 3 betting or folding from the SB, which I think has some merit vs a good player on the BTN, then I think 66 needs to be in your range. If you have a calling range I'd just always put 66 in that range.

    AP I'd check and decided based on bet sizing. Anything too much over like 2/3 pot probably just let it go, we do have some BD equity
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited March 2017
    Depends how you want to play your strategy... If you are 3 betting or folding from the SB

    I am actually. 66 is the bottom of my 3b range here and as we can see... "not so easy" (nightmare?) to play postflop.

  • Jack7777Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    I think the answer is already here, the hand is not a good 3bet hand. I would play it the same way I would play a 3bet bluff that got called. If your image is strong you could take a stab at the pot trying to repp an over pair. It's V dependent like had been stated. 66 is a bluff catcher.
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Joanna wrote: »
    Depends how you want to play your strategy... If you are 3 betting or folding from the SB

    I am actually. 66 is the bottom of my 3b range here and as we can see... "not so easy" (nightmare?) to play postflop.

    Yea these hands are probably the toughest part of that strategy to deal with, however, with your BD equity I think you have to check call one reasonable bet, also a lot of people stab and give up when the 3 better checks to them. However if we face like a 3/4 pot size bet plus folding is fine.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    What do you think of just exploitively dropping 66 from 3b range into fold range and basically 3bing 88+ or 99+ or even TT+ as far as PPs go?
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    Joanna wrote: »
    What do you think of just exploitively dropping 66 from 3b range into fold range and basically 3bing 88+ or 99+ or even TT+ as far as PPs go?

    r the games ur playing in really that tough that u can't flat from the sb?
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Joanna wrote: »
    What do you think of just exploitively dropping 66 from 3b range into fold range and basically 3bing 88+ or 99+ or even TT+ as far as PPs go?

    r the games ur playing in really that tough that u can't flat from the sb?

    Well.. I'm guessing by tough you mostly refer to high frequency of BB squeezes. If so, no that's not a major consideration at all. The frequency of BB squeezes is extremely low. But I don't think BB squeezes are the main rationale for 3b or fold strategy from SB. I think there are more important considerations such as the difficulty of realizing value on lower PPs OOP and the general difficulty of playing PPs OOP - you have to check-fold very often postflop to a cbet. At least 3-betting gives you a chance to take down the pot right there and not get involved in a difficult and mostly -EV postflop environment. Also our odds to call are not anywhere as good as from BB and we lose relatively little by just folding. The EV of folding is always 0. We should only not fold when the EV of doing something else is higher than 0. It's hard to achieve a positive EV postflop OOP with lower PPs. Flatting entices BB to come in which puts you OOP vs 2 players and reduces your equity as it's now split 3-ways. There are long-term benefits too such as discouraging an overly eager button opener from stealing your blinds. And most players at my stake don't play well vs 3-bets even in position.

  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    edited March 2017
    Yeah...depends on how often the button is calling you.

    When to 3 bet 66..you really want everyone to fold..
    So if you get called..check folding a lot of flops is not that bad..

    So if button is sticky..I might cosidwr just flatting 66 or folding 66 and 3 betting 88+

    You have to remember. .this idea of 3 bet everything from sb came from online 6 max games where people play sensible poker and don't make too many mistakes postflop

    In live full ring that is not always true
    Thanked by 1squishmytomato
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    Also another thing I noticed about this strategy that no one talks about is your sb 3 bet range is quite merged..

    Which means you will flop very medium strength hands postflop

    This will mean you have to protect your checking ranges aggressively postflop

    If you never check top pair gk..check calling 3 streets is impossible..and this strategy will fail miserably if you bet your good hands postflop but check your medium hands..coz you have too many medium strength hands

    Would love to hear resident online pro @stayinschool s thoughts on checking flop after 3 betting from sb
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    iamallin wrote: »
    Also another thing I noticed about this strategy that no one talks about is your sb 3 bet range is quite merged..

    Which means you will flop very medium strength hands postflop

    This will mean you have to protect your checking ranges aggressively postflop

    If you never check top pair gk..check calling 3 streets is impossible..and this strategy will fail miserably if you bet your good hands postflop but check your medium hands..coz you have too many medium strength hands

    Would love to hear resident online pro @stayinschool s thoughts on checking flop after 3 betting from sb

    I usually check every J but AJ, AJ I think you can go 3 streets for value. You can check some JJ too
    Thanked by 1iamallin
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Against live players who may most not 4 bet QQ and sometimes trap AA and KK checking flop with AJ is fine too
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