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$2/$5: Weird Preflop Spot vs Donkey's Min 4-Bet

CO ($1000) opens to $15, I 3b to $60 OTB with K2s, SB donkey ($500) MIN 4bs to $105, CO folds. I cover both. Donkey is clumsy with chips, doesn't know the rules about legal raise amounts, etc.

Now, we're getting 4.11:1 to call. But if he has something like AK,QQ+ then we're dominated by his AK. We'll flop something super strong only 6% of the time. Now if we smash then he gives us his stack almost certainly so then implied odds are 12.88:1 which requires us to smash 7% of the time which is higher than 6% we will.

1. So call or fold?
2. If we call and flop a K what's our plan?


Comments

  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    Fold pre to the first raise. This is just too light of a 3 bet. Call the 4 bet since the novice player will not value bet his hand properly and let you realize a lot of your equity often when you have position on him.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    iamallin wrote: »
    Fold pre to the first raise. This is just too light of a 3 bet. Call the 4 bet since the novice player will not value bet his hand properly and let you realize a lot of your equity often when you have position on him.

    Why is it too light?

  • pocket11spocket11s Posts: 144Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    Joanna wrote: »
    Why is it too light?

    It's obv too light as K2s is really a garbage hand, but it's not terrible in this spot as we block KK/AK, although a smaller sizing would be better as we're in position imo. ~50-55.

    Probably call now vs the minraise vs said opponent more so to preserve your table image and not look like a complete nit. Looking to fold to most flops, including Kxx if opponent bombs it.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    pocket11s wrote: »
    Joanna wrote: »
    Why is it too light?

    It's obv too light as K2s is really a garbage hand, but it's not terrible in this spot as we block KK/AK

    I know it's a garbage hand. This is a 3-bet bluff with a blocker.
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    edited February 2017
    Joanna wrote: »
    iamallin wrote: »
    Fold pre to the first raise. This is just too light of a 3 bet. Call the 4 bet since the novice player will not value bet his hand properly and let you realize a lot of your equity often when you have position on him.

    Why is it too light?
    lay your thought process pre lay your plan post in this hypo spot.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    You have so many better hands to bluff with.

    Suited aces make for much better bluffs. Suited gappers as well. And sometimes off suit Broadways.

    K2s does not have connectivity going for it.

    You will never flop or turn a straight draw with this hand let alone make a straight.

    Your flush draw isn't to the nuts.

    It's an okay hand to use as a bluff if you think people are playing way too weak tight and folding everything like gordon vayo. But I wouldn't expect that to be the case in a small stakes live cash game.
  • BlackBoxEquityBlackBoxEquity Posts: 165Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    Joanna wrote: »
    CO ($1000) opens to $15, I 3b to $60 OTB with K2s, SB donkey ($500) MIN 4bs to $105, CO folds. I cover both. Donkey is clumsy with chips, doesn't know the rules about legal raise amounts, etc.

    Now, we're getting 4.11:1 to call. But if he has something like AK,QQ+ then we're dominated by his AK. We'll flop something super strong only 6% of the time. Now if we smash then he gives us his stack almost certainly so then implied odds are 12.88:1 which requires us to smash 7% of the time which is higher than 6% we will.

    1. So call or fold?
    2. If we call and flop a K what's our plan?


    1) Definitely don't like 3b bluff with that hand.
    2) You are not "smashing" any flop.
    3) I don't see how/why you are so certain that when you "smash" (see #2) he is handing over the rest of his stack ($900).
    4) Cold 4b by any opponent, especially a donk, in small game = AA, KK, QQ, AK (don't care that you block the K). If you flop a K and he has QQ, he's not getting it in.

  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited February 2017
    I agree that K2s really sucks postflop. But I'm not looking to play postflop with this hand. I'm looking for a fold or 4-bet. If my villain responds to 3-bets by folding or 4-betting rather than calling than postflop potential matters little and I can 3-bet a polarized range with the bad end of it being really junky like K2s and then having blockers is what matters.
  • AcidhaussAcidhauss Posts: 291Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    I like the 3bet in position with a suited king - this assumes that the CO generally raises with all his hands and doesnt really overlimp. If you catch him once with a hand like 87o go for it.

    I would call given stack sizes and the incredible odds. If we flop a K, play some post-flop!
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    I see your point and vs someone that 4 bets or folds k2s because quite a bit better of a 4 bet then a hand like 65s, however I think that type of player is extremely rare in live poker and even rare online now a days.

    The thing that almost all live players good IMO is call 3 bets too wide and not 4 bet nearly enough.

    AP i'm not folded a suited hand for this price.

    I don't really see how we can fold. We are getting close to direct odds to call vs aces and are IP and will most likely over realize vs a fish
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    K2s is fine to 3b vs a player who folds too much.

    #1 it is an above average hand that doesn't play well in a limped pot with many people. It's one of those hands that you wouldn't limp with it but it's fine playing heads up with position.

    #2 it has blockers

    #3 vs a player who folds too much preflop what is he calling with? QQ? 99? AK? 77? vs these 3 of these hands we have an overcard and a safe FD possibility. vs one we have removal. Also a Kxx board is more likely to be paid a couple streets by 99 then an Axx board. I am not saying Axs isn't a better hand to 3b with I am just showing the advantages of a Kxs hand even though it is weaker.

    If our opponent calls too much then I don't like the 3b.

    As played? It's tough. Depends on the donkey. If this guy is always has AA/KK and always bombs the flop then I am folding. Fine you are getting 4:1 to call but you only hit a monster 1 in 20. And if you flop a FD he isn't going to give you odds to go on. If the donkey leans on making small "milking" bets and checks lots of turn scare cards because he is oblivious to hand ranges or can raise AK and check when he misses then calling is fine.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    We are getting close to direct odds to call vs aces

    Yes but our equity estimation that we compare to the odds assumes that we'll see all 5 cards which is quite unlikely in this spot. I think the chances of us smashing the flop are more relevant in this case.

  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited February 2017
    Plot thickens.

    I call with K 2

    Flop: K :s: 5 9 $230 SB shoves $395
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Joanna wrote: »
    Plot thickens.

    I call with K 2

    Flop: K :s: 5 9 $230 SB shoves $395

    Fold
    Thanked by 2iamallin bingyian
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Boring:
    I folded.
    Thanked by 1neverlearn2
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